The Confederate flag

[SpyridonOCA]

Is the Confederate flag a symbol of racial hatred or Southern pride and opposition to abuse of government power? Should it be allowed to be displayed?

By the way, Abraham Lincoln was a racist, imperialist and warmonger. He literally trampled on the Constitution, and we are paying for it to this day.
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Real Lincoln by Charley Reese[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Mythical Lincoln by Thomas J. DiLorenzo[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[nightflight]

If Jim Webb is picked as the VP for BO, then you will see a fundamental shift in the perceptions of the Stars and Bars.

 

[SpyridonOCA]

It is unfair what our public school system and media establishment has told us about the history of this country.

 

[Adivi]

It is unfair what our public school system and media establishment has told us about the history of this country.

That the Civil War was about slavery?

 

[SpyridonOCA]

That the Civil War was about slavery?

The war between the states was about consolidating power for the federal government. Abraham Lincoln didn't give a damn about the slaves. He wanted them shipped back to Africa.

 

[platzapS]

If you want to represent Southern pride, make a flag with grits and a beautiful southern belle. The Stars & Bars represents a nation that not only lost the war against the United States, but was founded in order to preserve slavery, perhaps the most vile of American institutions. I'll fight to defend your right to fly the Confederate flag or the Soviet flag or the Nazi flag, because this is America, but I reserve the right to view those who fly it as racist idiots.

 

[kermit]

As far as I'm conserned the confederate flag is the flag of a nation that was an enemy of the US. I see flying it as completely incompatable with patriotism for the US.

 

[jgarden]

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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Strange how conservatives who so eloquently argue their right to fly the Confederate Flag under the 1st Amendment, are the most virulent critics of the ACLU when it attempts to defend those same rights to other groups - with which conservatives disagree.

 

[SpyridonOCA]

If you want to represent Southern pride, make a flag with grits and a beautiful southern belle. The Stars & Bars represents a nation that not only lost the war against the United States, but was founded in order to preserve slavery, perhaps the most vile of American institutions. I'll fight to defend your right to fly the Confederate flag or the Soviet flag or the Nazi flag, because this is America, but I reserve the right to view those who fly it as racist idiots.

What Lincoln cultists would have us believe is that the North didn't participate and didn't profit from the slave trade, which is an absolute lie. Further, they will tell us that the war between the states was motivated by an altruistic desire to free the slaves, which is also a lie.

 

[SpyridonOCA]

As far as I'm conserned the confederate flag is the flag of a nation that was an enemy of the US. I see flying it as completely incompatable with patriotism for the US.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] The Dictator Lincoln invaded the South without the consent of Congress, as called for in the Constitution; declared martial law; blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution; illegally suspended the writ of habeas corpus; imprisoned without trial thousands of Northern anti-war protesters, including hundreds of newspaper editors and owners; censored all newspaper and telegraph communication; nationalized the railroads; created three new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Party’s electoral vote; ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure Republican Party victories; deported Ohio Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham for opposing his domestic policies (especially protectionist tariffs and income taxation) on the floor of the House of Representatives; confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo12.html
[/FONT]

The Confederate flag represents rebellion against federal tyranny.

 

[Lisa0315]

Southerner here...If the Confederate flag had remained a symbol of Southern Independence, that would be one thing. Unfortunately, the South has a violent history of racism since the War of Aggression. I cannot look at the Confederate flag without thinking of lynchings and cross burnings. It is our own damned fault.

Lisa

 

[jgarden]

West Virginia School Officials Violated Student's Rights By Punishing Him Over a T-Shirt, Court Rules (6/1/2005)

CHARLESTON, WV -- A federal court today found that school officials violated a high school student's rights when they disciplined him for wearing a t-shirt bearing an image of the Confederate flag. The ruling comes in response to a lawsuit brought by the American Civil Liberties Union of West Virginia.

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/gen/11264prs20050601.html

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This is the same ACLU that the OP in another thread describes as "vile," "hateful" and guilty of TREASON.

 

[SpyridonOCA]

Southerner here...If the Confederate flag had remained a symbol of Southern Independence, that would be one thing. Unfortunately, the South has a violent history of racism since the War of Aggression. I cannot look at the Confederate flag without thinking of lynchings and cross burnings. It is our own damned fault.

Lisa

During the civil rights movement, the Confederate flag came to be a symbol of racial hatred, yet it was originally a symbol against Northern aggression.

 

[Lisa0315]

During the civil rights movement, the Confederate flag came to be a symbol of racial hatred, yet it was originally a symbol against Northern aggression.

Okay, isn't that what I said? Whomever made it into a symbol of racial hatred based it on actual events that occurred. It is similar to the swastika. The swastika has benevolent and Christian roots. Yet, today, it is a symbol of absolute evil. Should we bring the swastika back to represent Christianity?

Lisa

 

[DeathMagus]

Anyone with a cursory knowledge of the Civil War knows that it was started for a myriad of reasons, and that abolitionism was only an issue for a small number of citizens. I don't know of any schools that teach the Civil War as a "free the slaves" extravaganza - that's just the meme that's easy to remember - and thus gets passed along.

Oh, and regarding the OP - I see the Confederate flag as a symbol of extreme federalism and secessionist ideals. Of course, individuals can fly whatever flags they want - even those belonging to other countries. I don't think the Confederate flag should be flown on government property, or on government buildings, however.

 

[YamiB]

I'd say that the Confederate flag has quite a connection to racism as it seems that high on the motivations for the South leaving where that they were afraid of the North trying to end or hurt slavery. It wasn't about slavery to most of the North though some abolitionists saw it as an opportunity to advance their goals. The North just thought that the South was not justified in unilaterally leaving the union and wanted to reunite the country.

I always find it funny when people call the US Civil War the War of Northern Aggression considering that the South attacked first.

I think that the first thing that would come to mind for me would be the pro-slavery government of the confederate south. I seems odd to me that people trying to display southern pride would choose this paticular symbol since it is connected to the confederate south. That doesn't mean that I think they should be restricted from displaying it.

On the related issue of the swastika that was mentioned I think there could be more justification for that to be used. The swastika has existed for thousands of years before the Nazis adopted it and had various meanings in many cultures. If a person was using it to say show German pride I would find that questionable because of the Nazi connection, but there are perfectly reasonable uses of the symbol that have no connection to racism. For example Hinduism and Buddhism have it as a religious symbol.

 

[SpyridonOCA]

The Northern government wasn't any less racist than the Confederacy.

 

[Lisa0315]

The Northern government wasn't any less racist than the Confederacy.

But, we are talking associations here. History is written by the victors. Second, the North did not have the history of lynchings and such KKK nonsense as the South did.

So, while a person can certainly admire the Confederate flag as a personal symbol and wholly be unbiased towards any group, that does not mean that the perception of that person will not be ugly.

If you find a way to change the perception of the Confederate flag, I will gladly wave one. However, I just do not see that happening.

We have a culture here of oppression and worse. It is in the past and I do not think that black people get the raw deal anymore, but the history of the South still hurts. It is just a fact of life.

Lisa

 

[Ubik]

it's just a coincidence that all the southern states kept racist laws (segregation in school, jim crow laws...) long after the north stopped? Racism is much more prominent in the south as compared to the north. It's been that way for a long time and it's still like that. Remember the Dixiecrats? They were southern Democrats who were disgusted with Truman's views on ending discrimination. Because of Truman's views, he lost a lot of support in the south and Strom Thurmond got a lot of the southern votes in 1948.

The confederate flag maybe stood for something a bit different a long time ago, but it had lost it's meaning. please allow me to quote Stephen Colbert:
"the Confederate flag is a symbol of Southern Pride in the same way that a swastika says 'Oktoberfest!'"

Symbols lose their meaning over a period of time. Some things gain a better meaning (at one time the bald eagle was considered a disgusting bird that scavenged for food, now it's a beautiful symbol for our country) and some things lose their good meaning and take on a bad one (swastika, confederate flag, rising sun, etc...).

That flag is just simply some cloth and dye. It's lost it's meaning, like many things in history, and now it stands for intolerance. You should have the right to display that flag, but why do you want to display it so badly? You lost the civil war (good thing, too). Deal with it. There's no more "northern aggression". Drop this issue and stop OBSESSING over it. Why are so many people obsessed with this issue? There's so many more important things in the world.

/rant

 

[Lisa0315]

it's just a coincidence that all the southern states kept racist laws (segregation in school, jim crow laws...) long after the north stopped? Racism is much more prominent in the south as compared to the north. It's been that way for a long time and it's still like that. Remember the Dixiecrats? They were southern Democrats who were disgusted with Truman's views on ending discrimination. Because of Truman's views, he lost a lot of support in the south and Strom Thurmond got a lot of the southern votes in 1948.

The confederate flag maybe stood for something a bit different a long time ago, but it had lost it's meaning. please allow me to quote Steven Colbert:
"the Confederate flag is a symbol of Southern Pride in the same way that a swastika says 'Oktoberfest!'"

Symbols lose their meaning over a period of time. Some things gain a better meaning (at one time the bald eagle was considered a disgusting bird that scavenged for food, now it's a beautiful symbol for our country) and some things lose their good meaning and take on a bad one (swastika, confederate flag, rising sun, etc...).

That flag is just simply some cloth and dye. It's lost it's meaning, like many things in history, and now it stands for intolerance. You should have the right to display that flag, but why do you want to display it so badly? You lost the civil war (good thing, too). Deal with it. There's no more "northern aggression". Drop this issue and stop OBSESSING over it. Why are so many people obsessed with this issue? There's so many more important things in the world.

/rant

Well, I understand the obsession thing. It is part of our culture. As much pride as we take in the wars we have won, there is a bit of a different kind of pride in lost causes. That part, you may not understand without being a Southerner. So, to the extent that some may look at the Confederate flag and feel entitled to display it, I get it, but I also warn that it just doesn't mean what they want it to mean anymore.

It was that kind of pride in a lost cause that made Germany accept a crazy man named Adolph Hitler. It is just not something that needs to be resurrected in the South. Too much pain and misery for it to be anything else right now. Maybe in another hundred years it will be seen as a historical signature of a culture but not right now.

Lisa