The concept of the Christian God doesn’t make sense to me.

mkgal1 · Dec 31, 2019

Andrewn said:
I think this is the theory usually referred to as "Recapitulation."

Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia

It is my favorite theory and is the main theory that St Athanasius of Alexandria advocated in his famous book "On the Trinity." Too bad most people learn Penal Substitution as if it were the standard of faith required for salvation.

Oh, thank you. I think you're right (and I'd never heard that). I agree that it's too bad that most people only learn PSA....and then get stuck with that. Wiki states this about "Recapitulation theory":

One of the main New Testament scriptures upon which this view is based states: "[God's purpose is, in] the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth..." (Ephesians 1:10, RV). The Greek word for 'sum up' was literally rendered 'to recapitulate' in Latin.[10]

Akita Suggagaki · Dec 31, 2019

"He commenced afresh the long line of human beings, and furnished us, in a brief, comprehensive manner, with salvation; so that what we had lost in Adam—namely, to be according to the image and likeness of God—that we might recover in Christ Jesus."

Through him we have recovered the image and likeness of God... if we, of course, follow him.

Akita Suggagaki · Jan 1, 2020

This is more a Catholic thing than Christian thing but the idea of Holy Days of Obligation. Today, for example, is th eFeast of Mary the Mother of God. Catholics are obligated under penalty of eternal damnation to attend Mass. nothing else matters, what kind of life they have lived, even th edisposition of their hearts. If they stayed u too late and just decided not to bother..."grave sin".

mkgal1 · Jan 1, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
This is more a Catholic thing than Christian thing but the idea of Holy Days of Obligation. Today, for example, is th eFeast of Mary the Mother of God. Catholics are obligated under penalty of eternal damnation to attend Mass. nothing else matters, what kind of life they have lived, even th edisposition of their hearts. If they stayed u too late and just decided not to bother..."grave sin".

You mean "more of a Catholic thing than a Protestant thing"? Because Catholics are Christian. Not all Catholics teach with a threat of damnation. In fact, I think it's when any religious teaching is based on threats and fear - it's crossed over into a false extremist view. God is love, and love is about freedom.

timothyu · Jan 1, 2020

mkgal1 said:
God is love, and love is about freedom.

But unfortunately many 'churches' are about domination and control in order to maintain authourity and remain financially solvent. As a result their system (mini kingdom in man's image) becomes more important than the Gospel of the Kingdom and defense of their supporting doctrines more important than the simple will of God.

Akita Suggagaki · Jan 1, 2020

mkgal1 said:
You mean "more of a Catholic thing than a Protestant thing"? Because Catholics are Christian. Not all Catholics teach with a threat of damnation. In fact, I think it's when any religious teaching is based on threats and fear - it's crossed over into a false extremist view. God is love, and love is about freedom.

Yes, but I am not aware of any Catholics teaching without the threat unless they are...."liberal?"...and not quite in line.

mkgal1 · Jan 1, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
Yes, but I am not aware of any Catholics teaching without the threat unless they are...."liberal?"...and not quite in line.

The Franciscan order - while their beliefs have remained in the minority - has remained in communion with Rome. Their teaching is rooted in love not fear (from everything I've heard/read).

Ken-1122 · Jan 1, 2020

Andrewn said:
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, well equipped for every good work.

It sounds like you might have been exposed to Islam bec your claims are similar to their's. But we believe the Holy Bible God-breathed into the writers, just like God's breath made us living beings in the beginning (Gen 2:7). God is capable of preserving His teaching. And it's quite possible that Jesus wrote some of his teaching. As far as crucifixion is concerned, the evidence of its historicity is overwhelming.

I've had friends of various other religions, To include Islam; and I've learned a little about them by associating, but most of my knowledge is of Christianity.

Andrewn said:
There are a lot of things in the Gospels that the Apostles didn't witness. Obviously, Jesus or Mary told them these things. As far as the resurrection is concerned, we know that the Lord's flesh and bone were not left in the tomb but changed into a glorified / body, just like our bodies after the general resurrection.

Okay; so the body that "doubting Thomas" inspected was not flesh and bone but the glorified body? And Jesus may have told people of those incidents? I guess that makes sense. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Andrewn said:
God of the OT is frequently described in the Psalms as loving, kind, faithful, just, compassionate, etc. He is the same God of the NT.

Yes! I do understand that. I guess that is one of the places I have problems with.

Andrewn said:
I love this. It's very wise. I have to agree that verses verses like those you quoted from Numbers represent a real difficulty.

Thank you, and I agree with the difficulty concerning those verses.

Andrewn said:
You have a safe and loving space in these Forums and I enjoy listening. Do you have time to attend a home Bible study? Faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message (Rom 10:17). You don't believe in God, but He believes in you. He created us and loves us and wants all of us to be saved. When I look at the lake and the trees and every blade of grass, when I look at how connected each cell and each organ in us, it's hard for me to say that things evolved on their own. I apologize for talking too much.

Thank you for your kind words and I enjoyed discussing with you.

Andrewn · Jan 1, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
most of my issues with the NT are probably contradictions and unrealistic issues.

To get over apparent contradictions and unrealistic issue, it may help to start with the Nicene Creed. It's a very good summary of what Christianity is. I know that fundamentalist churches ignore it in favor of doctrines like the Trinity, Penal Substitution, and Speaking in Tongues. I'd rather ignore these and contemplate the Creed.

The following website provides a commentary on the Creed:

The Orthodox Faith - Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture - The Symbol of Faith - Nicene Creed

The same site contains articles about different issues. At the bottom of the page, if you push "next" you get a short article about "Faith." If you push next again you get a short article about "God," and so on.

You were once saved and you know about Christianity. But if you have any questions, there are the Christian Forums. Happy New Year to you .

muichimotsu · Jan 1, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
"He commenced afresh the long line of human beings, and furnished us, in a brief, comprehensive manner, with salvation; so that what we had lost in Adam—namely, to be according to the image and likeness of God—that we might recover in Christ Jesus."

Through him we have recovered the image and likeness of God... if we, of course, follow him.

Not sure why that's supposedly desirable: if people begin the discussion with the assumption God is cogent and desirable after that fact, it's still unfounded in any reasonable standard rather than sentiments

ml5363 · Jan 2, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
How do you know? What do you base this on?

If all have sinned and fallen short, that would mean 100% of mankind has turned against God at one time or another, 0% allegiance. Why would he want this?

Proving ground?l If God knows everything, what is there for him to prove?

It goes against my morals to consider dead children as low on concerns and food for something else.

Again; if God could do anything, he could have changed all of that.

Why does there have to be a phase 1 and a phase 2? With unlimited power and ability, why not just do it right the first time? This doesn’t make sense to me.

He did do it right the first time...we have free will and choice...we messed up

ml5363 · Jan 2, 2020

I look at the OT as the law...laws that we would not be able to fully keep...thus needing a saviour....OT it was ritual and law, NT is hope and freedom

ml5363 · Jan 2, 2020

timothyu said:
How was his pain any different than the thousands of others hanging on crosses? Does God suffer differently? Or did He willingly die to show man's will is no match for God's will?

The Bible teaches that he paid for all of our sins..so he experienced all of ours..he paid for all and did nothing.. even one of the thieves on cross with him .pointed out He had done nothing

ml5363 · Jan 2, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
I think there was a little more involve in the Adam and Eve story than your stove analogy. If I recall correctly, there was a serpent involved, and God who knows all and see all was aware what his enemy was doing.
But to answer your question; if I saw my enemy trying to trick my children into touching a hot stove, I would intervene and keep my enemy away from my children. What would you do?

How about if you read Job and answer my question.

I was referring to Moses and Saul.

So are you saying God did not harden Pharaoh’s heart?

My problem is not with Pharaoh, but with the decision to kill innocent children in order to change his mind. Again; those children did not need to die, putting all the Egyptians in a deep sleep would have accomplished everything without death.

So are you saying what Moses did in the 31 chapter of Numbers was not via instructions from God?

I would rather be a programmable robot forced to do good for 80 years (or however long I live) with a guarantee ticket to Heaven for eternity, than be given free will for 80 years with a chance of going to Hell because of it.

But that would be following Him by force, not from love...He wants us to honor him and worship him...to love him with all of our heart...to be sincere...we can't do that if we are just going thru the motions...which unfortunately a lot of church goers are doing...playing church...

ml5363 · Jan 2, 2020

Ken-1122 said:
I would ask him where was he when I spent all of those years searching for him. For him to remain hidden all of that time then to come out of hiding and present himself in a way that I can recognize only after it is too late, I believe it would be unfair to judge me harshly because of it.

My husband went to Sunday school and church occasionally as a child...as an adt he said he studied and sought God...not until 4 years ago at the age of 43 did he go to a Bible preaching church did he hear a clear and simple sermon on the gospel did he become converted.

ml5363 · Jan 2, 2020

Akita Suggagaki said:
This thread reminds me of something else that doesn't make sense to me. That is how so many Christians will tell you that your faith or understanding or belief is not good enough for salvation because it is not identical to theirs.

That is Satan at work..causing all these divisions ...

muichimotsu · Jan 2, 2020

ml5363 said:
That is Satan at work..causing all these divisions ...

That seems awfully convenient to just further muddy the waters and not actually establish a reliable standard that isn't based on circular logic in the first place.

timothyu · Jan 2, 2020

ml5363 said:
That is Satan at work..causing all these divisions ...

IMO that division has existed since the Garden simply because man's will is individual and everyone has their own angle. God said put His will first. Man says we have other ideas. We need to take responsibility for our actions rather than blame an outside force the Jews didn't even recognise. They had the Tempter whose job it was was to test them as it tested Jesus in the desert.

Andrewn · Jan 2, 2020

You do realize making sense to you is not indicative of actual truth behind something in reality, right? There isn't merit in an argument if the basis is not an argument, but mere conviction that it makes "sense". And if this boils down to sentiments, it's even less reliable, because we are notoriously fallible in inferring agency and purpose behind general experiences and data; apophenia in particular

I honestly would prefer to spend my time reading fiction that can enrich my creative side

muichimotsu said:
That seems awfully convenient to just further muddy the waters and not actually establish a reliable standard that isn't based on circular logic in the first place.

What exactly constitutes to you a reliable standard of actual truth? What do you accomplish by posting here rather than reading fiction? Is it the same to you? Do you enjoy reading our Christian "apophenia?"

Presbyterian Continuist · Jan 2, 2020

timothyu said:
But unfortunately many 'churches' are about domination and control in order to maintain authourity and remain financially solvent. As a result their system (mini kingdom in man's image) becomes more important than the Gospel of the Kingdom and defense of their supporting doctrines more important than the simple will of God.

Strange...I have been associated with different churches for 53 years and I have never experienced what you are describing. Maybe NZ churches are different to those in Canada.

The concept of the Christian God doesn’t make sense to me.

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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