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The Colin Patterson quote: No Intermediate Fossils

gungasnake

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Every real expert who's ever commented on intermediate fossils is on record to the effect that there simply aren't any. Those kinds of quotes drive evolutionists up the wall and one of the two or three such quotes which produces the greatest volume of squealing and caterwauling is the famous quote from Colin Patterson (Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London).

The squealing and caterwauling usually takes the form of calling creationists who quote Patterson all liars, and claiming that the quote was taken out of context and that what Patterson really meant to say was that:

A wet bird never flies at night.

or something like that.

I've managed to come up with a wonderful article which describes the entire situation:

That quote!—about the missing transitional fossils

....One of the most famous and widely circulated quotes was made a couple of decades ago by the late Dr Colin Patterson, who was at the time the senior paleontologist (fossil expert) at the prestigious British Museum of Natural History.

So damning was the quote—about the scarcity of transitional forms (the ‘in-between kinds’ anticipated by evolution) in the fossil record—that one anticreationist took it upon himself to ‘right the creationists’ wrongs’. He wrote what was intended to be a major essay showing how we had ‘misquoted’ Dr Patterson.1 This accusation still appears occasionally in anticreationist circles, so it is worth revisiting in some detail.

Dr Patterson had written a book for the British Museum simply called Evolution.2 Creationist Luther Sunderland wrote to Dr Patterson inquiring why he had not shown one single photograph of a transitional fossil in his book. Patterson then wrote back with the following amazing confession which was reproduced, in its entirety, in Sunderland’s book Darwin’s Enigma:

‘I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic licence, would that not mislead the reader?’

He went on to say:

‘Yet Gould [Stephen J. Gould—the now deceased professor of paleontology from Harvard University] and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. … You say that I should at least “show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived.” I will lay it on the line—there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.’3 [Emphasis added].

The article goes on to provide a thorough analysis of whether or not anybody was being misquoted in such a way as to invert any sort of an original intent or meaning.
 

HitchSlap

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Every real expert who's ever commented on intermediate fossils is on record to the effect that there simply aren't any. Those kinds of quotes drive evolutionists up the wall and one of the two or three such quotes which produces the greatest volume of squealing and caterwauling is the famous quote from Colin Patterson (Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London).

The squealing and caterwauling usually takes the form of calling creationists who quote Patterson all liars, and claiming that the quote was taken out of context and that what Patterson really meant to say was that:



or something like that.

I've managed to come up with a wonderful article which describes the entire situation:

That quote!—about the missing transitional fossils



The article goes on to provide a thorough analysis of whether or not anybody was being misquoted in such a way as to invert any sort of an original intent or meaning.
Are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?
 
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Loudmouth

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Every real expert who's ever commented on intermediate fossils is on record to the effect that there simply aren't any.

Gould is an expert, and he says there are intermediate fossils.

"Some discoveries in science are exciting because they revise or reverse previous expectations, others because they affirm with elegance something well suspected, but previously undocumented. Our four-case story, culminating in Ambulocetus, falls into the second category. This sequential discovery of picture-perfect intermediacy in the evolution of whales stands as a triumph in the history of paleontology. I cannot imagine a better tale for popular presentation of science, or a more satisfying, and intellectually based, political victory over lingering creationist opposition. As such, I present the story in this series of essays with both delight and relish."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Hooking Leviathan by Its Past"
Stephen Jay Gould, "Hooking Leviathan by Its Past," 1997
 
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Loudmouth

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In this case, that would amount to you and your ilk thinking yourselves to know more about paleontology than somebody like Patterson, wouldn't it?

In this case, that would amount to you and your ilk thinking yourselves to know more about paleontology than somebody like Gould, wouldn't it?

"Some discoveries in science are exciting because they revise or reverse previous expectations, others because they affirm with elegance something well suspected, but previously undocumented. Our four-case story, culminating in Ambulocetus, falls into the second category. This sequential discovery of picture-perfect intermediacy in the evolution of whales stands as a triumph in the history of paleontology. I cannot imagine a better tale for popular presentation of science, or a more satisfying, and intellectually based, political victory over lingering creationist opposition. As such, I present the story in this series of essays with both delight and relish."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Hooking Leviathan by Its Past"
 
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Loudmouth

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Of course, Dr. Patterson was asked about creationists using the out of context quote, and he had this to say:

Sorry to have taken so long to answer your letter of July 9th. I was away for a while, and then infernally busy. I seem fated continually to make a fool of myself with creationists. The specific quote you mention, from a letter to Sunderland dated 10th April 1979, is accurate as far as it goes. The passage quoted continues "... a watertight argument. The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way to put them to the test."

I think the continuation of the passage shows clearly that your interpretation (at the end of your letter) is correct, and the creationists' is false.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/patterson.html


What Patterson was saying all along is that we can never say with absolute certainty that a fossil has descendants. That's it. Patterson himself is saying that you are misusing his words.
 
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gungasnake

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Steve Gould was always playing a double game. His original concern was to lift the dead hand of Darwinism from his own field of paleontology, the problem being that paleontologists were not being allowed to publish things which contradicted Darwinian gradualism. He made a number of early statements to the effect that there were no intermediates and then caught so much grief over it that he ended up making a few perfunctory statements such as those about supposedly ambulatory whales to try to repair some of the damage.

Creating the Missing Link: A Tale About a Whale

Many evolutionists, not content to explain away the gaps in the fossil record, still persist in hopes of finding missing links. This results in a never-ending series of claims concerning the discovery of transitional forms, sometimes sensational. These claims, with passage of time, generally are discredited by further research, although many persist in textbooks long after they are discredited, since once error gets in it is hard to get out.

Just recently one of these evolutionary stories was headlined in newspaper and magazine articles that appeared all over the world. For example, an Associated Press article of April 15, 1983, appeared in the Detroit Free Press with the headline "Missing Link Fossils Tie Whales to Land Mammals." The article reported that scientists say they have discovered fifty-million year-old fossils of a six-foot long, land-dwelling creature they describe as a "missing link" between whales and land animals. The article went on to say that the fossil remains represent the oldest and most primitive form of a whale yet discovered, an amphibious mammal that lived and bred on land and fed in shallow sea waters. One should be immediately suspicious of the term "whale" being given to such a creature, whatever it was, since whales are totally incapable of living or breeding on land.

News of this kind, as tentative and unreliable as it might be, is no doubt most welcome to evolutionists since there is indeed, as is the case with all other mammalian orders, a huge gap between the order Cetacea (this order includes all creatures known inclusively as "whales"—, whales, dolphins and porpoises) and any supposed ancestral creatures. Speaking of whales, Colbert says "These mammals must have had an ancient origin, for no intermediate forms are apparent in the fossil record between the whales and the ancestral Cretaceous placentals. Like the bats, the whales (using the term in a general and inclusive sense) appear suddenly in early Tertiary times, fully adapted by profound modifications of the basic mammalian structure for a highly specialized mode of life. Indeed, the whales are even more isolated with relation to other mammals than the bats; they stand quite alone."5

But what about the material upon which the newspaper articles were based? Can this material be reasonably interpreted as cetacean? The articles were based on interviews with Dr. Philip Gingerich of the University of Michigan and an article published by Gingerich, Wells, Russell, and Shah in Science.6 The fossil material consists of the posterior portion of the cranium, two fragments of the lower jaw, and isolated upper and lower cheek teeth. The creature this material supposedly represents was named Pakicetus inachus (one can never be certain, of course, that scattered fossil material all belongs to the same species).

This fossil material was found in fluvial red sediments, or river-produced deposits colored by material leached from iron ores. This formation is thus a terrestrial or continental deposit. The fossil remains associated with Pakicetus is dominated by land mammals. Nonmammalian remains include other terrestrial remains such as snails, fishes (particularly catfish), turtles, and crocodiles. This evidence indicates a fluvial and continental rather than a marine environment as would be expected for a whale or whale-like creature.

The authors state that the basicranium (only the back portion of the cranium was found) is unequivocally that of a primitive cetacean. On the basis of the brief description given in the article (eight lines of the text) one has no way of knowing whether that is true other than the declaration by the authors. It seems highly significant in that respect, however, that the auditory mechanism of Pakicetus was that of a land mammal rather than that of a whale, since there is no evidence that it could hear directionally under water nor is there any evidence of vascularization of the middle ear to maintain pressure during diving.

The teeth of Pakicetus are said by the authors to resemble those of terrestrial mesonychid Condylarthra and also to be similar to teeth of middle Eocene archeocete Cetacea such as Protocetus and Indocetus. Mesonychids are thought to be terrestrial mammals that were hoofed and possibly fed on carrion, mollusks, or tough vegetable matter.7 The authors mention two other "primitive cetaceans," Gandakasia and Ichthyolestes, known only from teeth, as being found in the same formation with Pakicetus. These have been described by West,8 and had earlier been identified as land mammals (specifically mesonychids). West, however, reassigned them to the order Cetacea.

Not a single fragment of the postcranial skeleton of these creatures has been found, so we have no idea what they really looked like. The fact that their remains were found in a terrestrial fluvial deposit with fossils of many other land animals, their teeth were very similar to known land animals, and their auditory mechanism was obviously not that of a whale, would seem to indicate, to say the very least, that the claim that a missing link between whales and land mammals has been found is premature. We are reminded of the admission of Professor Derek Ager (no friend of creationists) that practically every evolutionary story he had learned as a student has now been debunked.9 We suggest that Pakicetus will eventually join the ranks of the debunked "missing links" which include Trueman's Ostrea/Gryphea, Carruther's Zaphrentis, Piltdown Man, Nebraska Man, Neanderthal Man, and the hominoid collarbone recently identified as a dolphin rib.10
 
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Heissonear

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Naturalists on CF have little science experience and knowledge about how the fundamental foundation of Evolution is missing - of the millions upon millions of fossils found on earth there are no transition fossils that show or prove Evolution has happened. Naturalists, and subset Evolutionists, cannot prove through the fossil record that Evolution happened on earth. The fossil record proves the opposite, that Evolution never happened. Period.



Charles Darwin, Origin of Species:


But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them imbedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?”

Darwin, The Origin of Species, p. 163.

.....the number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed [must] truly be enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely-graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory [of evolution].”

Darwin, The Origin of Species, p. 323.

.
 
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Loudmouth

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Steve Gould was always playing a double game.

It is creationists who are playing the double game.

"Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory" 1994

Yet another expert chimes in.

"Macroevolution has growing and compelling evidence to support it. Elephants, turtles, whales, birds often have been cited as species where transitional species have not been identified. That is no longer true. We have gained more in the fossil record in the last ten years than in almost the entire previous history of science."--Dr. Francis Collins, "Faith and the Human Genome"
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF9-03Collins.pdf

Dr. Collins was the head of Human Genome Project and is currently the Director of the National Institutes of Health, the major funding agency for scientific research in the biological sciences.

He made a number of early statements to the effect that there were no intermediates and then caught so much grief over it that he ended up making a few perfunctory statements such as those about supposedly ambulatory whales to try to repair some of the damage.

Those were creationists twisting his words, as Gould explained.

Experts do say that there are intermediate fossils. They have been saying it for quite some time now.
 
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Loudmouth

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Of course, Dr. Patterson was asked about creationists using the out of context quote, and he had this to say..../QUOTE]

After they threatened to do WHAT to him?

Patterson is saying that creationists are twisting his words. Are you going to continue to twist Patterson's words? Is that all creationism has left?
 
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Heissonear

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Astounding. One of the (many) things that drove me away from YEC is this kind of dishonesty. Not only the quote mines themselves, but the failure of their proponents to admit them when shown to be mined.

You wish qoutes from Darwin said other. And wish the fossil record showed other. Are you intelligent enough to see the "missing" foundation Evolutionists try to stand on?

Naturalism is based on faith. Naturalists walk by faith. Have you not learned these things yet?

.
 
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Loudmouth

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You wish qoutes from Darwin said other. And wish the fossil record showed other. Are you intelligent enough to see the "missing" foundation Evolutionists try to stand on?

Naturalism is based on faith. Naturalists walk by faith. Have you not learned these things yet?

.

We found the foundation.

Evolution -- Transitional Hominids
 
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Heissonear

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Patterson is saying that creationists are twisting his words. Are you going to continue to twist Patterson's words? Is that all creationism has left?


You have yet to face the fact that the foundation of Evolution is missing The fossil record proves the process never happened. Evolution never happened.


.
 
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Loudmouth

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bhsmte

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Astounding. One of the (many) things that drove me away from YEC is this kind of dishonesty. Not only the quote mines themselves, but the failure of their proponents to admit them when shown to be mined.

Desperate people, do desperate things.
 
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Heissonear

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You again wish. You cannot prove life came about by natural processes. Nor can nnaturalistic scientists make any form of life, regardless the materials and conditions he has at his disposal.

You have no origin of life foundation to stand on, but through faith. The same for the process of Evolution, there is no evidence in the millions of fossils. You have no evidence that life evolved, but through faith.

I told you months ago about the weakness and limitations of Naturalism but you appear to be slow to learn or stubborn to see your lack of evidence foundation dilemma.

.
 
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