The 'coercive bargain' theory of Christianity.

[Estrid]

Of course not, which is why you lack understanding.

I think you just prefer not to know. But I'll try to explain anyway. Now, If you had read my post #503 in the context of the conversation that was taking place, then then you'd see that I was explaining the role of freedom within Christian thought, and that my last post to you continued in that same vein

I'll give an overview here. Man has a purpose. He's on a journey which he's been placed on by God. And the goal is to find God-to come to acknowledge His existence and understand man's need for Him-and without whom man is sort of floundering here in this existence, free, but lost. But man prefers to go it alone, so to speak, and that's ok, to a point, until he reaches the maturity and level of experience to realize that something's missing, that he was made for more than this world, with all of its beauty and wonder and also mess and harshness. But he'll come to know for himself that a world free even from God is no life worth living for long-it would probably get quite boring here, meaningless, after a lifetime or two at most, for one thing. And that's if your fortunate enough to have a relatively calm and peaceful life.

Now, it takes courage and the wherewithal to go against the herd mentality to go on this quest for God. But if one understands that love, and all that it implies: mercy, forgiveness, acceptance, truth, tolerance, patience, peace, justice, etc, is the most beneficial thing one can possess and express in a world that so often devalues and lacks it in favor of selfish gain, then they'll be reassured to learn that love is not just a concept, a nice ideal based on opinion but that its the most powerful and important virtue in existence, and that it is, as I may've mentioned before here, real and foundational to this very universe. It's worth living and dying for-it gives worth and meaning and purpose to all things as its been said. If we don't align ourselves with it, then the natural outcome is that we end up existing without it, with all that implies: cold, selfish pride, bickering, conflict, bitterness, jealousies, impatience, anger, rejection, impulsiveness, injustice, etc.

You made two contradictory statements about the purpose of christianity. Being unable to admit that,
first you tty a nonresponsive answer, now
you pretend its my failing that i dont see
a responce you refuse to offer.

Keep your christian behaviour. I wsnt nothing
to do with it.

 

[dlamberth]

God is, there can be no "God is not".

There is the spiritual experience of "God/Not God" as one pans the physical universe.

Since final judgment cannot be avoided, peace with God must preceed judgment or there will be loss.

Which really means Peace with one's Self.

 

[fhansen]

You made two contradictory statements about the purpose of christianity. Being unable to admit that,
first you tty a nonresponsive answer, now
you pretend its my failing that i dont see
a responce you refuse to offer.

Keep your christian behaviour. I wsnt nothing
to do with it.

Nonsense-all an immature excuse. And yet, I could've predicted your response. I explained it well-you're not wanting to hear. That's your choice. At least be honest with yourself about it.

 

[Estrid]

Nonsense-all an immature excuse. And yet, I could've predicted your response. I explained it well-you're not wanting to hear. That's your choice. At least be honest with yourself about it.

And again a dodge-n- blame.

You predicted that Id see if you
could admit to saying contradictoty thIngs?
That was no harder than me predicting you couldnt do it.

Got me though with the name calling, making up
ways to call me dishonest.

I thought you wete better than that.

 

[fhansen]

And again a dodge-n- blame.

You predicted that Id see if you
could admit to saying contradictoty thIngs?
That was no harder than me predicting you couldnt do it.

Got me though with the name calling, making up
ways to call me dishonest.

I thought you wete better than that.

Its just the truth. If you had read everything objectively, rationally, we wouldn't be having this part of the conversation. Instead you came with a chip, an anti-Christian bias, and there's been no letting go. You've paid little attention to what's actually been said. And that's a bit offensive. So if you want to take the time to read my posts you might at least actually know where I'm coming from-and you can react accordingly. Otherwise it's really a waste of our time here, a silly one.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You made two contradictory statements about the purpose of christianity.

I am a latecomer to this conversation so I am sorry about that . But what do you see as the two contradictory statements.

 

[Estrid]

I am a latecomer to this conversation so I am sorry about that . But what do you see as the two contradictory statements.

You can scan back, but the topic has
brought out such unseemly behavior,
such calumny and falsehood that its best to just let
that stand for what it is and say no more.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

The point of Christianity is that freedom, alone, won't necessarily lead one to anything good-and may well lead them to something evil.

So are you saying the point of Christianity is to properly orient our freedom?

Somehow I am reminded of a goofy analogy I came up with a long time ago on this thing with freedom and unfreedom.

If it is raining like crazy and I need to get to my car, I may be free to use or not use an umbrella. I will most likely choose it. In fact anyone in their right mind would choose the umbrella. That is not to say their choice is restricted. So when we come to see the deeper significance of our thoughts words and deeds and realize the most likely consequences we are motivated to use our freedom wisely. Christianity, along with several other normative systems provides that wisdom.

So I think the point of Christianity goes much deeper. In fact I think the depth are unfathomable. But a primary point is RELATIONSHIP with the spiritual foundation of our existence. Of course, that can mean many things to many different people. But in Christianity it means a relationship with a personal God through the Logos, the Messiah, Jesus.

 

[fhansen]

I am a latecomer to this conversation so I am sorry about that . But what do you see as the two contradictory statements.

I'll chime in. The first line of my post #503, I believe, was taken as some sort of mission statement or exhaustive statement of purpose for the Christian faith. And that made little sense, especially when going back into the context of the conversation, reading previous posts, along with any other posts I've made here. Later I was asked point blank about the purpose of Christianity and then I did give an answer, a concise one, post 555. But then all heck seemed to break lose as I was accused of making contradictory statements. Post #557 should've cleared it up but there was no having it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Great actually, I've finally found the peace/rest that I have been looking for, etc.

Been looking for peace and rest?

It has allowed to me to accept all of this for what it truly is, and just simply "be" for the most part, etc.

Odd answer...I'm not certain how you can do anything about "being".

With just maybe the exception of when I sometimes volunteer to come on here, etc, lol.

A distraction from the boredom of peace and rest I suppose...

But that I do to myself, etc.

Still just being who you are though.

There is a certain freedom involved knowing you are not, or were you ever, in control of anything ever at all ever, and that God has written you a good fate, etc.

That sounds like the opposite of freedom to me...but we need not get into it.

I just kind of feel sorry for those who aren't/never were/never will be, so lucky, etc.

I bet.

Every answer I ever wanted to know is fully known to me now, etc.

That seems unlikely.

So now I can always stop, and always fully be at, and enjoy true rest, anytime I want to, etc, or anytime I quote/unquote "choose to" etc.

Well it sounds like you don't believe that you choose anything at all unless I'm mistaken.

So, yeah, it's working out pretty well for me, etc.

I'm glad to hear it.

God Bless.

Ty.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It seems to me that all people of any stripe make this calculation. One must decide what action is good before you can do it.

I don't agree. I don't think people have any grasp of good and bad apart from the moral norms of the social group around them. I think one simply has reasons for doing...and moral goodness or badness only occurs to us as we choose to either transgress a moral norm or know we will feel the judgment of that transgression.

 

[Larniavc]

1. "the person with the lifeline is the one who built the water fall" - saying that God is responsible for putting us in peril of eternal damnation is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, but it is reflecting hostility towards God.
2. "and then pushed you in" - separating oneself from one's own shortcomings and blaming them on God is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, it is reflecting hostility towards God.
3. "and refused to throw you the life line until you agreed to his terms" - ascribing to God evil motives and actions is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, but it is reflecting hostility towards God.

I don’t believe you.

 

[Larniavc]

The issue here is ignoring the other points of view altogether.
Despite already being warned, and choosing to not only jump in, doing so having no life jacket, or lifeline in case.

Had God simple put the river (tree of knowledge) forever out of reach of Adam and Eve nothing bad would have happened.

 

[Larniavc]

And the ultimate right thing is contained in or defined by the world "love", which, by its nature, excludes doing the wrong thing.

Evidence please.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The fine details have remained consistent from the beginning, with a unified body of beliefs. It's some relative new-comers that have introduced inconsistences-and caused confusion among the masses.

It's always those newcomers isn't it? Messing up a good thing.

 

[Larniavc]

Its just the truth. If you had read everything objectively, rationally, we wouldn't be having this part of the conversation. Instead you came with a chip, an anti-Christian bias, and there's been no letting go. You've paid little attention to what's actually been said. And that's a bit offensive. So if you want to take the time to read my posts you might at least actually know where I'm coming from-and you can react accordingly. Otherwise it's really a waste of our time here, a silly one.

To be fair the assertions you have be making are unevidenced and the insults only go further to undermine your position.

Perhaps address the content of the argument rather than mischaracterise a fellow poster?

 

[fhansen]

It's always those newcomers isn't it? Messing up a good thing.

Anyone can do it. The point is that we had one church, one denomination in the west up to about 5 centuries ago. Now we have many.

 

[Ana the Ist]

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I smell a "pearls before swine" imminent....

 

[fhansen]

To be fair the assertions you have be making are unevidenced and the insults only go further to undermine your position.

Perhaps address the content of the argument rather than mischaracterise a fellow poster?

I didn’t insult. Now, if you care to go back and read objectively, we shouldn’t have more of this nonsensical conversation here either.

 

[fhansen]

Evidence please.

It should be self-evident that if one loves their neighbor then they won’t commit adultery with their neighbor’s spouse, or covet their neighbor’s goods, or steal from their neighbor, or kill their neighbor, or lie to or about their neighbor. As examples.