The 'coercive bargain' theory of Christianity.

[Larniavc]

The tree only symbolizes who man is- in relation to God, with the freedom man has to heed His will, the will of truth, reality, et al, or not. Adam chose to separate from God, from His authority His godhood-to eat of the fruit IOW, and the rest is world history, replete with the human suffering that results-that's experienced daily here on earth where man's will reigns exclusively. We like freedom right? Well, Adam (man) exercised it in a particular way. But we can learn here from it, that there's a better way.

That does not address my point at all.

 

[Larniavc]

Someone told me once that he refused to believe because he could never accept the premise that he "must believe in Jesus or go to hell". The falacy in this way of thinking, of course, is that Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved (John 3:17). Those who believe in Him have escaped condemnation, but those who refuse to believe in Him were condemned before they ever heard about Jesus, and their refusal to believe in Him changes nothing (John 3:18).

It is as if you were floating down a river in eminent danger of a life-threatening waterfall. Someone throws you a lifeline so that you may be saved. And your response is, "I refuse to grab that rope because I detest the idea that I must grab it or die."

It’s a bit annoying though to be hurtling towards a water fall and the person with the lifeline is the one who built the water fall and then pushed you in and refused to throw you the life line until you agreed to his terms.

 

[Estrid]

Yes, unless that freedom leads to union with God, which is its proper ultimate use, then it's only freedom which won't necessarily, of and by itself, produce anything good. Today many people virtually worship freedom, seeming to believe that it will inevitably bring them fulfillment, etc. If interested, here are some related teachings:

MAN'S FREEDOM

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27
I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

Not that I bothered to read past the first
line your obviously ( and typically) unresponsive answer.

 

[Estrid]

It’s a bit annoying though to be hurtling towards a water fall and the person with the lifeline is the one who built the water fall and then pushed you in and refused to throw you the life line until you agreed to his terms.

That would be the act of a psychopath.

 

[B Griffin]

It’s a bit annoying though to be hurtling towards a water fall and the person with the lifeline is the one who built the water fall and then pushed you in and refused to throw you the life line until you agreed to his terms.

You say you're an atheist.

According to Wikipedia, "Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."

There is no evidence in your reply that you are an atheist. The evidence shows that you recognize there is an all-powerful sovereign God who is creator, judge, exocutioner, and savior.

Since you apparently know these things, don't you think it would be wise to settle your differences with Him out of court instead of waiting (Luke 12:58)?

 

[Estrid]

You say you're an atheist.

According to Wikipedia, "Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."

There is no evidence in your reply that you are an atheist. The evidence shows that you recognize there is an all-powerful sovereign God who is creator, judge, exocutioner, and savior.

Since you apparently know these things, don't you think it would be wise to settle your differences with Him out of court instead of waiting (Luke 12:58)?

Having heard that some people believe these
strange things is hardly the same thing as
accepting them as true.


Slopping in a pascals wagrr argument at the end
is convincing only to a believer.

 

[Larniavc]

There is no evidence in your reply that you are an atheist. The evidence shows that you recognize there is an all-powerful sovereign God who is creator, judge, exocutioner, and savior.

You do understand that antithesis points of view can be held in one's imagination without subscribing to that point of view?

 

[ralliann]

You say you're an atheist.

According to Wikipedia, "Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."

There is no evidence in your reply that you are an atheist. The evidence shows that you recognize there is an all-powerful sovereign God who is creator, judge, exocutioner, and savior.

Since you apparently know these things, don't you think it would be wise to settle your differences with Him out of court instead of waiting (Luke 12:58)?

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 

[Estrid]

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Avoid thou all good and probing questions,
for lo, such may bring tribulation unto they
whob doth glory in the vanity of their ignorance.

 

[B Griffin]

Having heard that some people believe these
strange things is hardly the same thing as
accepting them as true.

You do understand that antithesis points of view can be held in one's imagination without subscribing to that point of view?

Let's examine these non-atheistic statements:

1. "the person with the lifeline is the one who built the water fall" - saying that God is responsible for putting us in peril of eternal damnation is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, but it is reflecting hostility towards God.
2. "and then pushed you in" - separating oneself from one's own shortcomings and blaming them on God is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, it is reflecting hostility towards God.
3. "and refused to throw you the life line until you agreed to his terms" - ascribing to God evil motives and actions is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, but it is reflecting hostility towards God.

I suppose you could argue that these things just reflect hostility towards the idea of God and do not constitute agreement that there is a God. But I believe they reveal a deap-seated understanding of the existance of God, of His eternal power, of His Godhead, and of every person's worthiness of His wrath.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse (Ro 1:18–20).​

 

[Estrid]

Let's examine these non-atheistic statements:

1. "the person with the lifeline is the one who built the water fall" - saying that God is responsible for putting us in peril of eternal damnation is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, but it is reflecting hostility towards God.
2. "and then pushed you in" - separating oneself from one's own shortcomings and blaming them on God is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, it is reflecting hostility towards God.
3. "and refused to throw you the life line until you agreed to his terms" - ascribing to God evil motives and actions is not reflecting Christian beliefs, nor is it reflecting atheistic beliefs, but it is reflecting hostility towards God.

I suppose you could argue that these things just reflect hostility towards the idea of God and do not constitute agreement that there is a God. But I believe they reveal a deap-seated understanding of the existance of God, of His eternal power, of His Godhead, and of every person's worthiness of His wrath.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse (Ro 1:18–20).​

You dont seem to get it that its discussing
a character in literature.

Think of it as talking about the actions of
James Bond.

 

[B Griffin]

Slopping in a pascals wagrr argument at the end
is convincing only to a believer.

I do remember that concept now that I refreshed my memory on it. But there really is no wager. God is, there can be no "God is not". Since final judgment cannot be avoided, peace with God must preceed judgment or there will be loss.

 

[B Griffin]

9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I'm not striving with them, I'm caring for their souls.

 

[fhansen]

Not that I bothered to read past the first line

Of course not, which is why you lack understanding.

your obviously ( and typically) unresponsive answer.

I think you just prefer not to know. But I'll try to explain anyway. Now, If you had read my post #503 in the context of the conversation that was taking place, then then you'd see that I was explaining the role of freedom within Christian thought, and that my last post to you continued in that same vein

I'll give an overview here. Man has a purpose. He's on a journey which he's been placed on by God. And the goal is to find God-to come to acknowledge His existence and understand man's need for Him-and without whom man is sort of floundering here in this existence, free, but lost. But man prefers to go it alone, so to speak, and that's ok, to a point, until he reaches the maturity and level of experience to realize that something's missing, that he was made for more than this world, with all of its beauty and wonder and also mess and harshness. But he'll come to know for himself that a world free even from God is no life worth living for long-it would probably get quite boring here, meaningless, after a lifetime or two at most, for one thing. And that's if your fortunate enough to have a relatively calm and peaceful life.

Now, it takes courage and the wherewithal to go against the herd mentality to go on this quest for God. But if one understands that love, and all that it implies: mercy, forgiveness, acceptance, truth, tolerance, patience, peace, justice, etc, is the most beneficial thing one can possess and express in a world that so often devalues and lacks it in favor of selfish gain, then they'll be reassured to learn that love is not just a concept, a nice ideal based on opinion but that its the most powerful and important virtue in existence, and that it is, as I may've mentioned before here, real and foundational to this very universe. It's worth living and dying for-it gives worth and meaning and purpose to all things as its been said. If we don't align ourselves with it, then the natural outcome is that we end up existing without it, with all that implies: cold, selfish pride, bickering, conflict, bitterness, jealousies, impatience, anger, rejection, impulsiveness, injustice, etc.

 

[ralliann]

You do understand that antithesis points of view can be held in one's imagination without subscribing to that point of view?

The issue here is ignoring the other points of view altogether.
Despite already being warned, and choosing to not only jump in, doing so having no life jacket, or lifeline in case.

 

[fhansen]

That does not address my point at all.

The choice that God gives man is intrinsic to his being a morally accountable being, responsible for his actions. There's nothing at all wrong with that; man simply needs to do the right thing. And the ultimate right thing is contained in or defined by the world "love", which, by its nature, excludes doing the wrong thing. So that's not a bad choice to be presented with-it's a very, very good one, in fact, the best choice we can make.

 

[partinobodycular]

Today many people virtually worship freedom, seeming to believe that it will inevitably bring them fulfillment, etc.

But I can't help but believe that in the eyes of God it's far, far better to love thy neighbor because your heart compels you to, than to do so because some book compels you to. In fact the book often does more harm than good, because it enables the self-righteous to justify their actions under the guise of 'God's will'.

You complain that people worship freedom, but it isn't freedom that's the problem, it's what one uses it to justify that's the problem, in the same way that your book isn't the problem, rather it's what one uses it to justify that's the problem.

All of your book, with all of its laws, and all of its prophets, boils down to this... do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God. If a person's heart compels them to do the first two, then they have by default also done the third. There are many things in this world that people choose to worship... freedom and holy books are just two of them... but be careful that your condemning of one, isn't born out of worshiping the other.

 

[fhansen]

But I can't help but believe that in the eyes of God it's far, far better to love thy neighbor because your heart compels you to, than to do so because some book compels you to. In fact the book often does more harm than good, because it enables the self-righteous to justify their actions under the guise of 'God's will'.

You complain that people worship freedom, but it isn't freedom that's the problem, it's what one uses it to justify that's the problem, in the same way that your book isn't the problem, rather it's what one uses it to justify that's the problem.

All of your book, with all of its laws, and all of its prophets, boils down to this... do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God. If a person's heart compels them to do the first two, then they have by default also done the third. There are many things in this world that people choose to worship... freedom and holy books are just two of them... but be careful that your condemning of one, isn't born out of worshiping the other.

Oh, I never condemned freedom, only criticized its abuse, which is rampant in this world. Otherwise I agree with pretty much everything you said, which should actually be obvious by now, I'd think, if one's read much of my posts. Micah 6:8 is a favorite verse of mine, BTW.

 

[ralliann]

Your pointing towards Love. But that's it.

Yes, because it was in response to the world, and judgement.

The magic happens when one steps further and becomes Love, Joy, Peace, Long suffering, Gentleness, Goodness and Faith.
Or another way of saying it, becomes Christ like.

Which is in Christ. Higher than the worldly things.

 

[Estrid]

I do remember that concept now that I refreshed my memory on it. But there really is no wager. God is, there can be no "God is not". Since final judgment cannot be avoided, peace with God must preceed judgment or there will be loss.

Really. Your opinion about the existence
of an undetectable "god" is Truth.
As if.

I do remember that concept now that I refreshed my memory on it. But there really is no wager. God is, there can be no "God is not". Since final judgment cannot be avoided, peace with God must preceed judgment or there will be loss.

No such concept in your mind.
Same as no concept that you
are living in a fantasy land.