The church must be catholic!

[mmksparbud]

It appears that they kept Saturday only for a very short time. A few years. Sunday worship definitely was the rule during the lifetimes of the Apostles.

for many years, but then persecutions started by Rome because Christians at first were getting confused with Jews because they worshipped on the same day. That is when it was decided to change the day of God to a day made by man as the pagans kept Sunday as their festival and worship day it was more convenient and in hopes of bringing in more pagans to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath for Christians----they then came up with the idea of "because that is when Jesus was resurrected." Then Constantine did his thing and so it became Sunday---but not to God and not to many Christians who refused to take on the day instead of the God given one and so those who did so, were now accused of Judaizing and could be persecuted and killed and were. But there has always down through history been those who kept the Sabbath and is recorded throughout history in books written long before any SDA!!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Sabbath points to creation---does not point forward. The Sabbath rest on the new earth is still the same
Sabbath day.

What is our religion called again? Sabbathanity? No wait, that's not it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

for many years, but then persecutions started by Rome because Christians at first were getting confused with Jews because they worshipped on the same day. That is when it was decided to change the day of God to a day made by man as the pagans kept Sunday as their festival and worship day it was more convenient and in hopes of bringing in more pagans to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath for Christians----they then came up with the idea of "because that is when Jesus was resurrected." Then Constantine did his thing and so it became Sunday---but not to God and not to many Christians who refused to take on the day instead of the God given one and so those who did so, were now accused of Judaizing and could be persecuted and killed and were. But there has always down through history been those who kept the Sabbath and is recorded throughout history in books written long before any SDA!!

You've presented your theory, now how about you back it up with evidence. Do you have any primary, historical sources to actually back up your theory?

I've already presented my evidence. Which, to nobody's surprise, has been completely ignored.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

In the Western Church it's always been the 3rd commandment. Until the 16th century when John Calvin re-numbered the commandments.



My God is the Most Holy Trinity.



The pope isn't a god. He's a fallible man. And the bishop of Rome didn't designate anything in regard to the ten commandments.



Ah, well then it shouldn't be any trouble for you to show where God calls it the fourth commandment.

I assure you, this isn't a hill you want to die on, you don't have a leg to stand on on this matter.

-CryptoLutheran

I do not make stuff up nor does my church!!

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.”

Father A. Pereira says: “It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope,’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.”

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.

Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

There is a lot more---is this enough??

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I do not make stuff up nor does my church!!

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.”

Father A. Pereira says: “It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope,’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.”

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.

Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

There is a lot more---is this enough??

Some of these quotes are astounding.

 

[mmksparbud]

What is our religion called again? Sabbathanity? No wait, that's not it.

-CryptoLutheran

Seventh-day Adventist. And there are other denominations that keep the Sabbath, we are not the only ones. Throughout history is has been so in spite of all that was done by the Catholic church to wipe them out---never read about the Waldenses? They were not SDA--and what did the RCC do to them? Look it up for yourself so we are not accused of making this up-----not pretty. They were burned alive in a cave that they has run into. And they still exist.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I do not make stuff up nor does my church!!

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.”

Father A. Pereira says: “It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope,’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.”

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.

Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

There is a lot more---is this enough??

Enough what? You didn't even try to give any ancient historical sources. You copy-pasted quote-mines from random Catholic individuals, completely without context, taken from your SDA playbook.

Now, let's try this again.

You presented your theory, now can you back it up with historical sources?

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[ViaCrucis]

never read about the Waldenses? They were not SDA--and what did the RCC do to them?

I'm familiar with the Waldenses, they're still around. And you know what day they worship on? Sunday.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Seventh-day Adventist.

My religion is called Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Some of these quotes are astounding.

If by "astounding" you mean totally predictable and offer absolutely nothing of merit to the conversation. I agree.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

You've presented your theory, now how about you back it up with evidence. Do you have any primary, historical sources to actually back up your theory?

I've already presented my evidence. Which, to nobody's surprise, has been completely ignored.

-CryptoLutheran

How many times do we have to post them? I already posted scriptures verifying the apostles all kept the sabbath.

Enough what? You didn't even try to give any ancient historical sources. You copy-pasted quote-mines from random Catholic individuals, completely without context, taken from your SDA playbook.

Now, let's try this again.

You presented your theory, now can you back it up with historical sources?

-CryptoLuthearn

You refuse the Catholic sources, those were officials in your church not laymen! And I got those particular ones from a Catholic Forum--https://forums.catholic.com/t/is-the-pope-god/120954

I can get a ton more, what sources do you consider acceptable since you do not consider Catholic sources realizable??

 

[ViaCrucis]

You refuse the Catholic sources, those were officials in your church not laymen!

I'm a Lutheran.

And I got those particular ones from a Catholic Forum--https://forums.catholic.com/t/is-the-pope-god/120954

I can get a ton more, what sources do you consider acceptable since you do not consider Catholic sources realizable??

How about sources from the time period you are talking about. Something from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, century. That's what I've been asking for. That's why I specifically asked for ancient, primary, historical sources.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm familiar with the Waldenses, they're still around. And you know what day they worship on? Sunday.

-CryptoLutheran

Today.

"With few exceptions, Waldensians today deny that the ancient Waldenses kept the seventh-day Sabbath. However, historical evidence indicates that many did observe Sabbath during the Middle Ages. During the early part of the seventeenth century, the Swiss historian Melchior Goldastus (1576–1635) commented on Emperor Frederic II’s Constitution of 1220 against heretics. He reasoned that the label insabbatati was used to describe heretics during the thirteenth century “because they judaize on the Sabbath,” that is, they kept the Sabbath like the Jews. He mentioned that the “Valdenses” were often called “Insabbatati,”14 indicating that during that time there were Waldenses who kept the seventh-day Sabbath (Saturday) as a day of rest".

The Waldenses rejected all things that were RCC. Many did succumb to Sunday and are now Sunday worshipers. Torture and murder can change people's minds on stuff---worked well for the Inquisition.

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm a Lutheran.



How about sources from the time period you are talking about. Something from the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, century. That's what I've been asking for. That's why I specifically asked for ancient, primary, historical sources.

-CryptoLutheran

Sorry, I forgot. Luther did not get to the point of Accepting the 7th day. But he did insist that Sunday be kept just as reverently as the 7th.

"He insisted that the Lord's day should be kept holy as a sacred act of worship. He was very outspoken on this point and vehemently criticized those who transgressed the Sabbath.

"He who makes the Lord's day an occasion for gluttony, carousing, gambling, dancing, lounging about or whoring;

"He who is given to idleness and he who sleeps when he should be at divine service; also he who gads about or gossips instead of attending worship;

"He who works or trades without necessity;

"He who does not pray and meditate upon the sufferings of Christ, nor repent of his sin and plead for grace, celebrating the day solely by dressing, eating and a formal observance;

"He who amid his toils and tribulations is not resigned to the dispensations of Providence;

"He who is rather a help than an obstacle to others in living contrary to this commandment."

"Also sluggishness in matters pertaining to God's service comes under this head."

I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also.
—MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist, pages 71, 72.

He did acknowledge that the dead know not anything. With time, I'm sure he would have changed his mind on the Sabbath, but maybe not--- for he hated Jews with a passion!

OK---so sources that are before SDA's ever came into being are not acceptable as history even though written by none SDA, and scripture doesn't count? Why is that?

 

[Albion]

for many years, but then persecutions started by Rome because Christians at first were getting confused with Jews because they worshipped on the same day.

So that would be the first century, AD.

 

[BobRyan]

Exoudus12: 16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in "them", save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

It would appear two days were set aside the first and the last. The last day or first day of the Sabbath was preparation cooking the manna was allowed as part of that rest .

Ex 12
Now the Lord said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2 “This month shall be the beginning of months for you; it is to be the first month of the year for you. 3 Speak to all the congregation of Israel, saying, ‘On the tenth of this month they are, each one, to take a lamb for themselves, according to the fathers’ households, a lamb for each household.

11 Now you shall eat it in this way: with your garment belted around your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and you shall eat it in a hurry—it is the Lord’s Passover. 12 For I will go through the land of Egypt on that night, and fatally strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the human firstborn to animals; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments—I am the Lord. 13 The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will come upon you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.
Feast of Unleavened Bread
14 ‘Now this day shall be a memorial to you, and you shall celebrate it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations you are to celebrate it as a permanent ordinance. 15 For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall remove dough with yeast from your houses; for whoever eats anything with yeast from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16 And on the first day you shall have a holy assembly, and another holy assembly on the seventh day; no work at all shall be done on them, except for what must be eaten by every person—that alone may be prepared by you. 17 You shall also keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your multitudes out

===========

Exodus 12 is talking about the annual feast of unleavened bread that begins with Passover. This chapter begins on the 10th day of the first month relating to isolating out the lamb that is to be used for sacrifice ( a sacrifice that would happen on the 14th day of the month which starts the numbering for the days of the feast of unleavened bread) -- but this does not single out any day of the week for when it begins or ends. The 10th day of any given month can fall on any day of the week.

The first day of the feast could easily be on the 7th day Sabbath.
The 7th day of the feast could have come out to "Tuesday" in a given year (week day 3)

None of this has anything to do with the creation memorial - 7th day Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also.
—MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist, pages 71, 72.

Interesting quote...


Lutheran

"The observance of the Lord's Day (Sunday) is founded not on any command of God, but on the authority of the Church." Augsburg Confession of Faith.

"They [the Catholics] allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appears, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, say they, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." -Augsburg Confession of Faith, Art. 28, par. 9.


"They [Roman Catholics] allege the change of the Sabbath into the Lord's day, as it seemeth, to the Decalogue [the ten commandments]; and they have no example more in their mouths than they change of the Sabbath. They will needs have the Church's power to be very great, because it hath dispensed with the precept of the Decalogue." The Augsburg Confession, 1530 A.D. (Lutheran), part 2, art 7, in Philip Schaff, the Creeds of Christiandom, 4th Edition, vol 3, p64 [this important statement was made by the Lutherans and written by Melanchthon, only thirteen years after Luther nailed his theses to the door and began the Reformation].

"For up to this day mankind has absolutely trifled with the original and most special revelation of the Holy God, the ten words written upon the tables of the Law from Sinai."-"Crown Theological Library," page I78.


"The Christians in the ancient church very soon distinguished the first day of the week, Sunday; however, not as a Sabbath, but as an assembly day of the church, to study the Word of God together, and to celebrate the ordinances one with another: without a shadow of doubt, this took place as early as the first part of the second century."-Bishop GRIMELUND, "History of the Sabbath," page 60.


"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance."- AUGUSTUS NEANDER, "History of the Christian Religion and Church," Vol. 1, page 186.


"I wonder exceedingly how it came to be imputed to me that I should reject the law of Ten Commandments...Whosoever abrogates the law must of necessity abrogate sin also."-MARTIN LUTHER, Spiritual Antichrist," pages 71, 72.


"We have seen how gradually the impression of the Jewish Sabbath faded from the mind of the Christian church, and how completely the newer thought underlying the observance of the first day took possession of the church. We have seen that the Christian of the first three centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time celebrated both." The Sunday Problem, a study book by the Lutheran Church (1923) p.36

 

[BobRyan]

3rd commandment.

-CryptoLutheran

The Jews numbered the commandments with the Sabbath being the 4th commandment long before the Catholic Church ever existed.

"both the Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls show the passages of Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 divided into ten specific commandments with spaces between them" -- and they had the Sabbath commandment as number 4 long before the Catholic church.

Not that I have an issue with people numbering the commandments how they wish -- just making a point of historic fact.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Both days were set aside first and last. No work shall be done on them either day. the preparation on the last was to be eaten of the first day as the true fast. .The day he said let there be children of light.

Exodus 16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

The weekend Sabbath.

Um no. It is prohibited to cook on the weekly Sabbath. This has to to with the days of unleavened bread...the 7th day here is a day of counting...

 

[visionary]

1. Exodus 34:28
   And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
   
   
2. Deuteronomy 4:13
   And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Ten Commandments are written on stone, Jeremiah says they are to be written on the heart. Most have no problem with nine of them... Amazing how the fourth is an issue. What is so special about the fourth that the devil is trying to remove it, replace it, and yet God stands by it as the Lord of the Sabbath
?