The Christian Trinity.

[PattyOfurniture]

Yea, here's how it breaks down for most folks.

unitarian = one god who is YHWH or also called God the Father, who is also known as the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not God. Jesus is the son of God.


Trinitarian = 3 persons of god each of which is god all by himself but you can't add the 3 beings up unless you call them persons of God, when you call each one God such as God the Father , God the Son, and God the holy Spirit, you can't add them up according to trinity theology, All of them add up to one God, according to Trinity 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. See if you added up every being that trinitarians call god then they would be polythiests cause they have 3 beings they each call god. So in order to add the 3 beings up so that they won't be polythiests you have to call them persons of g od, then they are only polypersons of god, not polythiests. I know it's a bit complicated and nonsensical but that's the ball game.

ONeness = ONe God who is God the Father, or also known as YHWH, . According to most oneness folks God manifests in 3 ways, as the father, the son and the holy spirit.

I am oneness/unitarian. ONeness in that i accept most all of the oneness doctrine, except the nonsensical parts like Jesus is his own daddy or that God manifests as Jesus or as the holy spirit. I am not unitarian in the sense that I do not affiliate with the non penetcostal nature of the unitarian church. But I believe YHWH or also known as God the Father , is the one annd only true God. Jesus is not God, he is the son of God, the holy spirit is the spirit of YHWH or God the Father.

course some in here blend trinity with oneness unbeknownst to them, and of course there are other doctrines such as mormon JW etc with which I am not very familiar.

hey bruder,
i'm confused.are you "oneness Pentecostal"? (like the UPC,apostolic)
sounds like it but they are modalists.
the UPC believe that Jesus is Gods name.but theres only 1 God.the father came to Earth and walked around was crucified then went back to Heaven and is not acting in the role of the Holy Spirit(but Jesus is his name).....

 

[2ducklow]

hey bruder,
i'm confused.are you "oneness Pentecostal"? (like the UPC,apostolic)
sounds like it but they are modalists.
the UPC believe that Jesus is Gods name.but theres only 1 God.the father came to Earth and walked around was crucified then went back to Heaven and is not acting in the role of the Holy Spirit(but Jesus is his name).....

well we have always been oneness but never believed that stuff you say here. Except that Jesus is God's name, God gave Jesus his own name according to scripture.

We don'tfit firmly in any camp. We call ourselves oneness, and we come out of the UPC oneness tradition,( I myself am a former UPCer and was baptised in the UPC) . WE have more kinship with onenesss/apostalic than with unitarians by far. but through our own study over the years we have abandoned many of the illogical concepts of oneness such as Jesus being his own daddy, or t hat God manifests himself as Jesus. Although strictly speaking we probablyshould be called unitarians, I find it difficult to refer to myself as a unitarian because of what I consider the negative baggage associated with unitarian, such as the unitarian church which largely does not believe that faith in Jesus is required to be sved. most unitarians are universal unitarirans meaning they believe it don't matter what you believe you will be saved anyway. So I think of myself as oneness without the illogical parts of it. Except for a few aspects of oneness such as what I've mentioned here we are pretty much in accord with them on many things. NOt as legalistic though, our women wear makeup and jewlery but they do have long hair though, it's a requirement, See, the upc says women can't cut their hair, we say women can cut their hair as long as it is still long after it's cut cause short hair on women holds angels back in the service and puts a big damper on the moving of the spirit durring church services.).

 

[PattyOfurniture]

well we have always been oneness but never believed that stuff you say here. Except that Jesus is God's name, God gave Jesus his own name according to scripture.

We don'tfit firmly in any camp. We call ourselves oneness, and we come out of the UPC oneness tradition,( I myself am a former UPCer and was baptised in the UPC) . WE have more kinship with onenesss/apostalic than with unitarians by far. but through our own study over the years we have abandoned many of the illogical concepts of oneness such as Jesus being his own daddy, or t hat God manifests himself as Jesus. Although strictly speaking we probablyshould be called unitarians, I find it difficult to refer to myself as a unitarian because of what I consider the negative baggage associated with unitarian, such as the unitarian church which largely does not believe that faith in Jesus is required to be sved. most unitarians are universal unitarirans meaning they believe it don't matter what you believe you will be saved anyway. So I think of myself as oneness without the illogical parts of it. Except for a few aspects of oneness such as what I've mentioned here we are pretty much in accord with them on many things. NOt as legalistic though, our women wear makeup and jewlery but they do have long hair though, it's a requirement, See, the upc says women can't cut their hair, we say women can cut their hair as long as it is still long after it's cut cause short hair on women holds angels back in the service and puts a big damper on the moving of the spirit durring church services.).

I love it. I'm picturing the men in long sleeve shirts,womens hair in buns and acoustic guitars and tambourines(blankets to cover the womens legs if they fall under the spirit)...lol
i'm having a lil fun here but this is prolly not your church.what i mentioned though is very nice stuff.I myself bruh do not believe God walked the Earth and was at some time not sitting on His Throne.theres an awesome episode of X-files(i dont watch much TV but this was shown to me and it was awesome)in this episode theres a church with snake-handlers vs a very p/c church.at least the makers of the X-files made the snake handlers look like the genuine article.look it up,its a very surprising thing.
and i agree with the "Unitarian" handle.i hate using it for myself being the baggage it carries with it.
May Jesus' God Bless us all

 

[2ducklow]

I love it. I'm picturing the men in long sleeve shirts,womens hair in buns and acoustic guitars and tambourines(blankets to cover the womens legs if they fall under the spirit)...lol
i'm having a lil fun here but this is prolly not your church.

nope. I almost always wear short sleves shirts cause I sweat a lot, in fact I have the reputation of being the sweatiest person in the whole church. I'm known for that, not being proud about it, just a fact. NO buns, no acoustic guitars and no tabourines, and no blankets, If a woman should fall down, and her legs need covering, a man will take his coat off and cover them. No mass slain in the spirit, and in fact I'm about the only one who falls down in the spirit, which i only do maybe once or twice or 3 times a month.

what i mentioned though is very nice stuff.I myself bruh do not believe God walked the Earth and was at some time not sitting on His Throne.theres an awesome episode of X-files(i dont watch much TV but this was shown to me and it was awesome)in this episode theres a church with snake-handlers vs a very p/c church.at least the makers of the X-files made the snake handlers look like the genuine article.look it up,its a very surprising thing.
and i agree with the "Unitarian" handle.i hate using it for myself being the baggage it carries with it.
May Jesus' God Bless us all

snake handlers make up a very small percentage of pentecostals, I think all of them are in the appalachains. only snake i'm gonna pick up is agrass snake.

anyway back to the subject, where are all the trinitarians? Aren't they suppose to be here trying to convert us or something?

 

[PattyOfurniture]

nope. I almost always wear short sleves shirts cause I sweat a lot, in fact I have the reputation of being the sweatiest person in the whole church. I'm known for that, not being proud about it, just a fact. NO buns, no acoustic guitars and no tabourines, and no blankets, If a woman should fall down, and her legs need covering, a man will take his coat off and cover them. No mass slain in the spirit, and in fact I'm about the only one who falls down in the spirit, which i only do maybe once or twice or 3 times a month.
snake handlers make up a very small percentage of pentecostals, I think all of them are in the appalachains. only snake i'm gonna pick up is agrass snake.

anyway back to the subject, where are all the trinitarians? Aren't they suppose to be here trying to convert us or something?

i was having fun as i said. the point of the snake handlers(im born and raised down here in the South) was that in the episode mentioned, the snake handlers at east had faith and lived a pretty clean life vs an established well polished church in the end of the show where the new Pastor(actually satan,appearing as a man) quotes a bible verse"I will spew you out of my mouth..." and then says..."there are many interpretations of this verse and it is not as harsh as it sounds at 1st".....lol
that was the gist of my post

 

[2ducklow]

i was having fun as i said. the point of the snake handlers(im born and raised down here in the South)

I'm a galvanized Yankee, i was born in the south and lived the first half of my life down there.

was that in the episode mentioned, the snake handlers at east had faith and lived a pretty clean life vs an established well polished church in the end of the show where the new Pastor(actually satan,appearing as a man) quotes a bible verse"I will spew you out of my mouth..." and then says..."there are many interpretations of this verse and it is not as harsh as it sounds at 1st".....lol
that was the gist of my post

oh. well. I still don't get it but no biggie.

 

[Kris10leigh]

2duck, sometimes I read your posts and wonder where exactly do you and I differ? I know we do, because we argue at times, but this line of thinking is inline with mine, mostly.

unitarian = one god who is YHWH or also called God the Father, who is also known as the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not God. Jesus is the son of God.

This is pretty much what I believe. As you said, my biggest hang up with "unitarian" is its negative connotations. It has become too "anything goes". And many of the churches in my area will always use the word "God" followed by the words "as you may understand Him or Her". That's not me. But its original conception and its purist definition is what I believe.

Trinitarian = 3 persons of god each of which is god all by himself but you can't add the 3 beings up unless you call them persons of God, when you call each one God such as God the Father , God the Son, and God the holy Spirit, you can't add them up according to trinity theology, All of them add up to one God, according to Trinity 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. See if you added up every being that trinitarians call god then they would be polythiests cause they have 3 beings they each call god. So in order to add the 3 beings up so that they won't be polythiests you have to call them persons of g od, then they are only polypersons of god, not polythiests. I know it's a bit complicated and nonsensical but that's the ball game.

ONeness = ONe God who is God the Father, or also known as YHWH, . According to most oneness folks God manifests in 3 ways, as the father, the son and the holy spirit.

Not sure I believe this way, but to me God is all powerful, so who knows? But does this mean that God can ONLY manifest in 3 ways? I believe he manifested as man when appearing to Jacob.

I am oneness/unitarian. ONeness in that i accept most all of the oneness doctrine, except the nonsensical parts like Jesus is his own daddy or that God manifests as Jesus or as the holy spirit. I am not unitarian in the sense that I do not affiliate with the non penetcostal nature of the unitarian church. But I believe YHWH or also known as God the Father , is the one annd only true God. Jesus is not God, he is the son of God, the holy spirit is the spirit of YHWH or God the Father.

The worship style you describe here and in later threads is foreign to me (like falling before the H.S. or women wearing long hair as a requirement for angels), but other than that, I'm agreeing with you.

 

[2ducklow]

2duck, sometimes I read your posts and wonder where exactly do you and I differ? I know we do, because we argue at times, but this line of thinking is inline with mine, mostly.


This is pretty much what I believe. As you said, my biggest hang up with "unitarian" is its negative connotations. It has become too "anything goes". And many of the churches in my area will always use the word "God" followed by the words "as you may understand Him or Her". That's not me. But its original conception and its purist definition is what I believe.



Not sure I believe this way, but to me God is all powerful, so who knows? But does this mean that God can ONLY manifest in 3 ways? I believe he manifested as man when appearing to Jacob.

The problem I have with that is that Jesus isn't a manifestation, he is a human being. I am not a manifestation of God, I am a human being in whom God manifests himself at times, same with Jesus except God manifests much better in a vessel like Jesus than like he can in me or any other man from the adamic race. Jesus is from a different race of men, the second adamic race of men, which is the perfected race of men. to which I belong by adoption..

The worship style you describe here and in later threads is foreign to me (like falling before the H.S. or women wearing long hair as a requirement for angels), but other than that, I'm agreeing with you.

Great stuff t o me.

 

[Kris10leigh]

The problem I have with that is that Jesus isn't a manifestation, he is a human being. I am not a manifestation of God, I am a human being in whom God manifests himself at times, same with Jesus except God manifests much better in a vessel like Jesus than like he can in me or any other man from the adamic race. Jesus is from a different race of men, the second adamic race of men, which is the perfected race of men. to which I belong by adoption..

I like the wording "God manifests IN" rather than "as". How's that?

 

[Meshavrischika]

i guess my question is, if they are a trinity, why all this focus on the Son of God?

 

[Meshavrischika]

i guess my question is, if they are a trinity, why all this focus on the Son of God?

 

[Simonline]

I like the wording "God manifests IN" rather than "as". How's that?

Still untrue. The Messiah is not a regular human whom God has chosen to 'possess' as an evil spirit would 'possess' a human. The Messiah is NOT a tough human shell with a 'soft and chewy' Divine center (since He would then be neither Divine nor human because neither God nor any man exists like that).

The Son is first and foremost the Eternal and Immutable Divine Creator, YHWH (Col.1:13-17). Only in a secondary sense has the Son come into existence as a finite human creature, i.e. the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth (1Jn.4:1-3). That's why the Messiah is known as 'Emmanuel - God with us'.

How much more plain and obvious can I make it?

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Thats a Lie. Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey is not three gods in one. Judaism has never taught such a doctrine ever. Neither can you prove Judeo believers in Mashiyach taught it.

That's because they didn't. YHWH is not 'three gods in one' (that's only how unenlightened Unitarians like you perceive the Trinity). YHWH is the One and Only Absolute Reality, Self-Existing as Three distinct, but in no way separate, Persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Contrary to popular opinion the concept of the Trinitarian Nature of God was widely held throughout the Old Testament (though not necessarily as well conceived or articulated by the Church during the fourth century since they had the benefit of coming after, rather than before, the Incarnation) see: The Jewish Trinity by Yoel Natan http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Trinity-Yoel-Natan/dp/1593300689

This response is far from addressing the actual point. It's the response of a person that cannot muster an actual argument.

What was really codified in the fourth century is anti-Jewish at best and has no bearing in this discussion. Ekklesia does not always mean a group of Messianic believers. Ekklesia can also be used in the Greek in referance to a meeting between a group of politcle leaders. Furthermore, Moshe was said to be in the Church (Ekklesia) in the desert Acts 7:38. Now, explain to us why does scripture fail to codify your Trinity????

I see, just dismiss everything I say as either a lie, irrelevant or wrong, well, two can play at that game. As the Messiah said, we are under no obligation to swing pearls before swine.


Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

Still untrue. The Messiah is not a regular human whom God has chsen to 'possess' as an evil spirit would 'possess' a human. The Messiah is NOT a tough human shell with a 'soft and chewy' Divine center (since He would then be neither Divine nor human because neither God nor any man exists like that).

The Son is first and foremost the Eternal and Immutable Divine Creator, YHWH (Col.1:13-17). Only in a secondary sense has the Son come into existence as a finite human creature, i.e. the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth (1Jn.4:1-3). That's why the Messiah is known as 'Emmanuel - God with us'.

How much more plain and obvious can I make it?

Simonline.

well like scripture.

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

or

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

(NASB w/ Strong's) Colossians 2:9 For in Him all<3956> the fullness<4138> of Deity<2320> dwells<2730> in bodily<4985> form<4985>,

how much more plain can scripture make it than 'God was in Christ".

Now your scripture reference.

Colossians 1:13-17 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

So you conclude that Christ is YHWH because God created all things IN Jesus. and you conclude that Jesus is YHWH because Jesus is the image of God (an image of something, like a photo, is not the thing it is an image of). First of all, Jesus is the first born of all creation, which means he is created too. 'Firstborn of all creation'" firstborn of creation" ''born of creation" means Jesus is a created being. unless you take it figuratively, which i do not. To say Christ is God contradicts, God was in Christ because it would mean god is and is in christ, you can't be the one you are in, point of logic. plus Christ means the annointed one. If christ is God, then there is no one to annoint God for no one is greater than God to annoint him. The greater annoints the lesser, we the lesser can't annoint God.

second of all all things cannot be created in Jesus literally so the meaning has to be figurative. So your rock solid proof is no proof, it is merely your interpretation. An interpretation that makes no logical sense. At the very least your interpretation of these verses if true would mean that they are extremely ambiguous as to your interpretation, so your assertion that it is clear is unfounded. Clear would mean something stating what you believe, not something you gleen from it. SCripture is clear that God was in Christ, that's exactly what it says, I don't have to interpret scripture to mean that. it says it.

 

[coix]

Simonline, don't let them get to you brother, I'm no senior veteran but I don't understand how anyone can sepeate Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit as being one without taking things out of context. I admit the way it is written Father, Son and Holy Spirit can lead some to confusion particularly when it comes to God seperating himself from His Word on the Cross. Isn't that we are called to do seperate our spirit from our flesh to become more like Jesus? To me it seems easy when I contimplate my own heart mind and soul and their seperate motivations and influence to understand that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all one being. One of you unitarians enlighten me please

 

[2ducklow]

Simonline, don't let them get to you brother, I'm no senior veteran but I don't understand how anyone can sepeate Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit as being one without taking things out of context. I admit the way it is written Father, Son and Holy Spirit can lead some to confusion particularly when it comes to God seperating himself from His Word on the Cross. Isn't that we are called to do seperate our spirit from our flesh to become more like Jesus? To me it seems easy when I contimplate my own heart mind and soul and their seperate motivations and influence to understand that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all one being. One of you unitarians enlighten me please

even if there was such a thing as 3 yous that are one you, it still wouldn't prove trinity, for the bible would have to say 3 yous are one you , before it could be proven biblically. And of course the bible never says anything as irrational as 3 yous are one you, only humans behaving irrationallly say that. even a mother dog knows that her 3 pups aren't one pup.

 

[Simonline]

well like scripture.

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

or

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

(NASB w/ Strong's) Colossians 2:9 For in Him all<3956> the fullness<4138> of Deity<2320> dwells<2730> in bodily<4985> form<4985>,

how much more plain can scripture make it than 'God was in Christ".

Now your scripture reference.

Colossians 1:13-17 who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

So you conclude that Christ is YHWH because God created all things IN Jesus. and you conclude that Jesus is YHWH because Jesus is the image of God (an image of something, like a photo, is not the thing it is an image of). First of all, Jesus is the first born of all creation, which means he is created too. 'Firstborn of all creation'" firstborn of creation" ''born of creation" means Jesus is a created being. unless you take it figuratively, which i do not. To say Christ is God contradicts, God was in Christ because it would mean god is and is in christ, you can't be the one you are in, point of logic. plus Christ means the annointed one. If christ is God, then there is no one to annoint God for no one is greater than God to annoint him. The greater annoints the lesser, we the lesser can't annoint God.

second of all all things cannot be created in Jesus literally so the meaning has to be figurative. So your rock solid proof is no proof, it is merely your interpretation. An interpretation that makes no logical sense. At the very least your interpretation of these verses if true would mean that they are extremely ambiguous as to your interpretation, so your assertion that it is clear is unfounded. Clear would mean something stating what you believe, not something you gleen from it. SCripture is clear that God was in Christ, that's exactly what it says, I don't have to interpret scripture to mean that. it says it.

No comment.

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Simonline, don't let them get to you brother, I'm no senior veteran but I don't understand how anyone can sepeate Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit as being one without taking things out of context. I admit the way it is written Father, Son and Holy Spirit can lead some to confusion particularly when it comes to God seperating himself from His Word on the Cross. Isn't that we are called to do seperate our spirit from our flesh to become more like Jesus? To me it seems easy when I contimplate my own heart mind and soul and their seperate motivations and influence to understand that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all one being. One of you unitarians enlighten me please

Hey, Coix!

When you get to know me better you'll understand why they don't call me 'rhino-hide' for nothing. All this anti-Christian propaganda just rolls off my back like water on a duck, since, like a duck, I too am coated with oil, the oil of the Holy Spirit, making me impervious to the kind of demonic propaganda that has enthralled so many others.

Actually, your understanding is incorrect. 'Jesus' is no part of the one and only Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal God.

YHWH exists as Father, Son (not 'Jesus') and Holy Spirit. As such, YHWH is both Eternal (existing without time) and Immutable (incapable of experiencing temporal change). The Name of the Son as Divine is the same as the Name of the Father as Divine and the Name of the Holy Spirit as Divine and that Name is YHWH which translates as 'I AM' or 'I EXIST' or 'EXISTENCE' (in other words Absolute (and unchangable) Reality).

At a specific point in history (i.e. from the Virgin Birth) the Son, as the second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH, incarnated as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth. From that historical point onwards the Son was ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO (distinct but NOT separate) WAYS as TWO (mutually exclusive) NATURES one Eternally Divine, the other everlastingly human. The reality of one Existence is called YHWH. The reality of the other existence is called Jesus of Nazareth.

This is how the orthodox Christian Church both understands and articulates the mystery of the Incarnation and the hypostatic union.

Simonline.

 

[2ducklow]

Hey, Coix!

When you get to know me better you'll understand why they don't call me 'rhino-hide' for nothing. All this anti-Christian propaganda just rolls off my back like water on a duck, since, like a duck, I too am coated with oil, the oil of the Holy Spirit, making me impervious to the kind of demonic propaganda that has enthralled so many others.

play on words obviously.

Actually, your understanding is incorrect. 'Jesus' is no part of the one and only Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal God.

YHWH exists as Father, Son (not 'Jesus') and Holy Spirit. As such, YHWH is both Eternal (existing without time) and Immutable (incapable of experiencing temporal change). The Name of the Son as Divine is the same as the Name of the Father as Divine and the Name of the Holy Spirit as Divine and that Name is YHWH which translates as 'I AM' or 'I EXIST' or 'EXISTENCE' (in other words Absolute (and unchangable) Reality).

At a specific point in history (i.e. from the Virgin Birth) the Son, as the second Person of the Eternal, Immutable and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH, incarnated as the human creature, Jesus of Nazareth. From that historical point onwards the Son was ONE PERSON simultaneously existing in TWO (distinct but NOT separate) WAYS as TWO (mutually exclusive) NATURES one Eternally Divine, the other everlastingly human. The reality of one Existence is called YHWH. The reality of the other existence is called Jesus of Nazareth.

This is how the orthodox Christian Church both understands and articulates the mystery of the Incarnation and the hypostatic union.

Simonline.

to us non trinitarians this kind of talk is just garble. I know I know, cone of silence time.

 

[Simonline]

to us non trinitarians this kind of talk is just garble.

That's because God chooses not to reveal it to everyone (Matt.11:25-26; 13:11-17; 1Cor.1:18-2:16). Who am I that I should dictate to God on whom He should bestow His grace?

Simonline.