The Christian Trinity.

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YeshuamySalvation

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There are some Christians that are mingling the doctrine of the Trinity with the Salvation of others! They say that one that does not believe in there doctrine of the Trinity is a Heretic and is unsaved. I will now place the burden on these individuals to provide scriptural evidence for there assertion. The "Term Trinity" is found absolutely nowhere in scripture. Giving this "Term" Salvific importance is very similar to what many where doing in first century Judaism. If one reads Col chapter 2 with it's linguistical, historical and cultural context; they will immediately notice the burdens and impositions placed on many according to the commandments and doctrines of men not of God. Many were even engaging in humility and false worship of angels Col 2:18. These individuals made the Torah of the Lord a burden rather then a delight as scripture teaches. They twisted the Commandments by Judging others in food and in drink, and on how and when they kept Holy Days, New Moon and even on how they kept the weekly Shabbat Col 2:16.

Many are judging other peoples salvation in the same manner as these individuals were doing then; not really knowing whats in the hearts of others. They say that one must profess a Trinity to be saved. Reminds me of those believers in the council who imposed that Gentile believers in Mashiyach must be circumcised in the manners of Moshe to be saved Acts 15:1-41. The Torah does not teach that one must be circumcised to be saved. It is why the council went in favor of Torah teachings not Oral Traditions nor man made impositions on others!

I don't see how could imposing the Trinitarian dogma on people and giving it Salvific import be any different then telling people they must be circumcised to be saved. Why did the men of the council in Jerusalem not decide to implement the Trinitarian dogma on people as vitally important for there Salvation?

The Trinitarian concept derives from the Babylonians pagan belief's that
Nimrod together with his wife Semiramis and child Tammuz were three god's in one, (The Sun God), though truly one God. The Egyptians also believed in a Trinity. The symbols they had of a Serpent, Wing and Globe supported the view of there God having different attributes and simultaneously three in one.

Deut. 12:28-32 Is explicitly clear when it tells us
when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods?We will do the same. You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

We are told not to inquire of the nations false gods, nor worship the Lord our God in the same manner that the pagan nations worship there gods. Why should i believe my God consists of a Trinity as the Babylonians believed there Sun God did? Does this not violate the above principle? Why should this be mandatory for peoples Salvation?
 

PattyOfurniture

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This is amazing to me also Brother.this is why I'm baffled by this ....
your going to get plenty of refutation in this thread from trinitarians,

but you will not see even 1 actual verse saying "if you do not believe Jesus is God,you are condemned" or "if you do not believe in a trinity you will be judged "

but they will still argue the point....lol
amazing stuff
may the God of Jesus Christ guide and Bless us all
 
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2ducklow

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This is amazing to me also Brother.this is why I'm baffled by this ....
your going to get plenty of refutation in this thread from trinitarians,

but you will not see even 1 actual verse saying "if you do not believe Jesus is God,you are condemned" or "if you do not believe in a trinity you will be judged "

but they will still argue the point....lol
amazing stuff
may the God of Jesus Christ guide and Bless us all
yea but. but the same people who say trinity isn't necessary for salvation cause no scripture says so will turn around and say belief that Jesus is god is necessary for salvation, even though it to is not only ever listed as a requirement for salvation but isn't even stated in the bible. go figure.
 
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YeshuamySalvation

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yea but. but the same people who say trinity isn't necessary for salvation cause no scripture says so will turn around and say belief that Jesus is god is necessary for salvation, even though it to is not only ever listed as a requirement for salvation but isn't even stated in the bible. go figure.
I'm hoping you are not referring to me. If indeed you are, i challenge you to prove it rather then resorting to empty accusations. I can assure you i have never made such an unsupported statement!
 
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LUNABELLA

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yea but. but the same people who say trinity isn't necessary for salvation cause no scripture says so will turn around and say belief that Jesus is god is necessary for salvation, even though it to is not only ever listed as a requirement for salvation but isn't even stated in the bible. go figure.
Hi, i am YMS wife. The debate regarding the nature of God interest me. My husband has mentioned to me in the past that belief in the trinity, oneness or unitarianism is not required for an individual's salvation. I was one that believed that belief in the trinity is necessary and have question my husband regarding this. Coming from a Catholic back ground this was exactly what i was taught. Though i don't consider this to be TRUTH any longer, i believe God to be strictly one as my husband believes. My husband happens to be a really lenient man towards other beliefs that differ from his, so, i highly doubt he would even imply that a belief in the deity is required for salvation. I am less lenient then him when it comes to this. I have argued and debated with him, but have found him to be right in his analysis, at least most of the time. He loves to teach the Torah to others in a loving and respectful way, non contentious. I have no idea how he debates in this message board, since i am reletively new at posting in here. What he posted regarding the Christian Trinity does not surprise me, Since he has repeatedly told me that some Trinitarians believe that one must accept the Trinity to be saved, though not all do. He has invited me to post here, though i feel a lot more comfortable in the Spanish section. Since it is my native tongue and much easier for me to express my thoughts clearly. But the downside is that the Spanish section does not have to much viewers and posters, so you will very rearley get a response.

Take care, Chao.
 
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2ducklow

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Hi, i am YMS wife. The debate regarding the nature of God interest me. My husband has mentioned to me in the past that belief in the trinity, oneness or unitarianism is not required for an individual's salvation. I was one that believed that belief in the trinity is necessary and have question my husband regarding this. Coming from a Catholic back ground this was exactly what i was taught. Though i don't consider this to be TRUTH any longer, i believe God to be strictly one as my husband believes. My husband happens to be a really lenient man towards other beliefs that differ from his, so, i highly doubt he would even imply that a belief in the deity is required for salvation.
You misunderstood me. Most christians believe that one has to believe that Jesus is god in order to be saved, regardless if they are oneness, trinitarian or whatever. IN spite of the fact that no verse says Jesus is God and no verse says believing Jesus is god saves you, they still insist it is absolutely necessary. As I recall, your husband does not believe I am a christian or saved because I do not believe Jesus is God. I believe he is God's son not God.
lunabella said:
I am less lenient then him when it comes to this. I have argued and debated with him, but have found him to be right in his analysis, at least most of the time. He loves to teach the Torah to others in a loving and respectful way, non contentious. I have no idea how he debates in this message board, since i am reletively new at posting in here.



What he posted regarding the Christian Trinity does not surprise me, Since he has repeatedly told me that some Trinitarians believe that one must accept the Trinity to be saved, though not all do. He has invited me to post here, though i feel a lot more comfortable in the Spanish section. Since it is my native tongue and much easier for me to express my thoughts clearly. But the downside is that the Spanish section does not have to much viewers and posters, so you will very rearley get a response.

Take care, Chao.
well all I can say if you choose to debate in here be prepared for a barage of insults from certain people.
 
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YeshuamySalvation

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You misunderstood me. Most christians believe that one has to believe that Jesus is god in order to be saved, regardless if they are oneness, trinitarian or whatever. IN spite of the fact that no verse says Jesus is God and no verse says believing Jesus is god saves you, they still insist it is absolutely necessary. As I recall, your husband does not believe I am a christian or saved because I do not believe Jesus is God. I believe he is God's son not God.
I know what you believe; in any-case, I have not judged anyones salvation in these forums. Please explain the above to me in bold. I might be misunderstanding, so, I'm not going to say anything until you explain it to me!

Blessings.
 
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Simonline

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There are some Christians [who] are mingling the doctrine of the Trinity with the Salvation of others!


That's because YHWH (the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) is essentially Trinitarian in Nature and if you're putting your trust in any other god then, come Judgment Day, you are going to be catastrophically disappointed.

They say that one that does not believe in there doctrine of the Trinity is a Heretic and is unsaved.

That's correct, we do. That's because anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet denies the essential Trinitarian Nature of God is, by definition, a heretic.

I will now place the burden on these individuals to provide scriptural evidence for there assertion.

No you won't. Since Trinitarianism has been universally recognized as orthodox Christian doctrine since at least the fourth century and believed by the Church to be the truth well before then (even though it was not officially codified into official doctrine until the fourth century), then the onus is on those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity (rather than those who uphold it) to ligitimately demonstrate (Q.E.D.) that the Trinity is actually false teaching and only then would the Christian Church be morally obligated to reject the doctrine of the Trinity in favour of a different doctrine concerning the essential Nature of YHWH.

It is not incumbent upon the Church to have to justify why she holds to the doctrine of the Trinity to each and every generation simply because some people in each and every generation simply refuse to believe the truth (why should YHWH have to constantly justify Himself to Satan)?

If, hypothetically speaking, the situation were reversed and Unitarianism were the universally accepted Truth and the Church had been essentially Unitarian for the past two millennia whilst Trinitarianism were heresy, then the onus would be on the Trinitarians to demonstrate why Unitarianism was false and Trinitarianism the Truth, then, should the Trinitarians succeed, the Unitarian Church would be morrally obligated to repudiate their Unitarianism and embrace Trinitarianism as the Truth.

The "Term Trinity" is found absolutely nowhere in scripture.

That's doesn't mean that the concept of the Trinity is false simply because the term is not to be found in the Scriptures. The truth of the Trinity is established on grounds other than whether or not the technical jargon used to articulate the concept is actually to be found in the Scriptures.

This is such a pathetic argument that it really needs to be laid to rest, once and for all. Such an argument is the mark of one who has been utterly indoctrinated by a heretical cult to such an extent that they are no longer capable of marshalling any better arguments against the Trinity

Giving this "Term" Salvific importance is very similar to what many where doing in first century Judaism. If one reads Col chapter 2 with it's linguistical, historical and cultural context; they will immediately notice the burdens and impositions placed on many according to the commandments and doctrines of men not of God. Many were even engaging in humility and false worship of angels Col 2:18. These individuals made the Torah of the Lord a burden rather then a delight as scripture teaches. They twisted the Commandments by Judging others in food and in drink, and on how and when they kept Holy Days, New Moon and even on how they kept the weekly Shabbat Col 2:16.

As is only to be expected from one who has been completely indoctrinated into a heretical cult, this is a total distortion of the truth. If one does not place one's faith in the God who is actually there (i.e. YHWH, as the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) then one does not have salvation. One is still dead in one's trespasses and sins because one has placed one's trust in a false god who does not actually exist in objective reality but only as a projection of human imagination on the basis of demonic deception (2Cor.4:4)

Many are judging other peoples salvation in the same manner as these individuals were doing then; not really knowing whats in the hearts of others.

If they are not trusting in the One True God who is actually there (who exists as Trinitarian, not Unitarian, in Nature) then what's in their hearts won't matter, they will still end up as children of Perdition in the everlasting Lake of Fire for refusing to trust in and live by the Truth as God has it through the Scriptures.

They say that one must profess a Trinity to be saved. Reminds me of those believers in the council who imposed that Gentile believers in Mashiyach must be circumcised in the manners of Moshe to be saved Acts 15:1-41.

It can remind you of whatever you like. If you believe in any god other than One Absolute, Infinite, Eternal, Immutable, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH as the One and Only God of the Bible then, as a child of Perdition, you are utterly lost...forever. And my guess is that because of your total indoctrination you are utterly impervious to anything I'm saying to you but one day, the realization of the truth of what I am telling you now will hit you so hard that it will blow you wide apart but by that time it will be to late to do anything about it as you suddenly realize that you have been utterly deceived by Satan and his emmissaries the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

The Torah does not teach that one must be circumcised to be saved. It is why the council went in favor of Torah teachings not Oral Traditions nor man made impositions on others!

The Trinitarian Nature of God is not a 'man-made imposition'. It is the Truth, as revealed by God through the Scriptures.

I don't see how could imposing the Trinitarian dogma on people and giving it Salvific import be any different then telling people they must be circumcised to be saved. Why did the men of the council in Jerusalem not decide to implement the Trinitarian dogma on people as vitally important for there Salvation?

It is different because faith in the One True God (as He actually is and not as we would like Him to be) is integral to salvation whereas, for Gentiles at least, circumcision of the flesh (but not the heart) is not required for salvation.

The first century Church in Jerusalem did not impose the doctrine of the Trinity upon the Gentile believers because the doctrine of the Trinitarian Nature of God was not formally codified until the fourth century (Doh!) Nevertheless, the Church believed the truth of the Trinitarian Nature of God long before it was formally codified.

The Trinitarian concept derives from the Babylonians pagan belief's that
Nimrod together with his wife Semiramis and child Tammuz were three god's in one, (The Sun God), though truly one God.


Not true. The Trinitarian concept comes from the One True God who alone exists as Trinitarian and has revealed Himself as such throughout the Scriptures (to those who have eyes to see).


The Egyptians also believed in a Trinity. The symbols they had of a Serpent, Wing and Globe supported the view of there God having different attributes and simultaneously three in one.

Just because Satan counterfeited the Trinity through the other false religions does not mean that the original is also false (otherwise what would Satan have to counterfeit)?

Deut. 12:28-32 Is explicitly clear when it tells us when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods?We will do the same. You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

This is a total distortion of the Truth. Worshipping God as Trinitarian (because, according to the Scriptures, that is how He exists) is not the same as worhipping the false gods of the Canaanites, the Babylonians or the Egyptians.

We are told not to inquire of the nations false gods, nor worship the Lord our God in the same manner that the pagan nations worship there gods. Why should i believe my God consists of a Trinity as the Babylonians believed there Sun God did? Does this not violate the above principle? Why should this be mandatory for peoples Salvation?

Because it is the Truth. YHWH IS Trinitarian in Nature and there is no salvation in believing that He is Unitarian in Nature any more than there is salvation in believing that you are Mickey Mouse! If you don't believe the Truth then there is no salvation, it's as simple as that.

Simonline.

 
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Simonline

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This is amazing to me also Brother.this is why I'm baffled by this ....
your going to get plenty of refutation in this thread from trinitarians,

but you will not see even 1 actual verse saying "if you do not believe Jesus is God,you are condemned" or "if you do not believe in a trinity you will be judged "

but they will still argue the point....lol
amazing stuff
may the God of Jesus Christ guide and Bless us all

Like I keep saying, there are none so blind as those who will not see.

You have such a facile understanding of the Scriptures that it is doubtful that you will ever discover the truth for yourself.

Simonline.
 
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2ducklow

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That's because YHWH (the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) is essentially Trinitarian in Nature and if you're putting your trust in any other god then, come Judgment Day, you are going to be catastrophically disappointed.



That's correct, we do. That's because anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet denies the essential Trinitarian Nature of God is, by definition, a heretic.



No you won't. Since Trinitarianism has been universally recognized as orthodox Christian doctrine since at least the fourth century and believed by the Church to be the truth well before then (even though it was not officially codified into official doctrine until the fourth century), then the onus is on those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity (rather than those who uphold it) to ligitimately demonstrate (Q.E.D.) that the Trinity is actually false teaching and only then would the Christian Church be morally obligated to reject the doctrine of the Trinity in favour of a different doctrine concerning the essential Nature of YHWH.

It is not incumbent upon the Church to have to justify why she holds to the doctrine of the Trinity to each and every generation simply because some people in each and every generation simply refuse to believe the truth (why should YHWH have to constantly justify Himself to Satan)?

If, hypothetically speaking, the situation were reversed and Unitarianism were the universally accepted Truth and the Church had been essentially Unitarian for the past two millennia whilst Trinitarianism were heresy, then the onus would be on the Trinitarians to demonstrate why Unitarianism was false and Trinitarianism the Truth, then, should the Trinitarians succeed, the Unitarian Church would be morrally obligated to repudiate their Unitarianism and embrace Trinitarianism as the Truth.



That's doesn't mean that the concept of the Trinity is false simply because the term is not to be found in the Scriptures. The truth of the Trinity is established on grounds other than whether or not the technical jargon used to articulate the concept is actually to be found in the Scriptures.

This is such a pathetic argument that it really needs to be laid to rest, once and for all. Such an argument is the mark of one who has been utterly indoctrinated by a heretical cult to such an extent that they are no longer capable of marshalling any better arguments against the Trinity



As is only to be expected from one who has been completely indoctrinated into a heretical cult, this is a total distortion of the truth. If one does not place one's faith in the God who is actually there (i.e. YHWH, as the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) then one does not have salvation. One is still dead in one's trespasses and sins because one has placed one's trust in a false god who does not actually exist in objective reality but only as a projection of human imagination on the basis of demonic deception (2Cor.4:4)



If they are not trusting in the One True God who is actually there (who exists as Trinitarian, not Unitarian, in Nature) then what's in their hearts won't matter, they will still end up as children of Perdition in the everlasting Lake of Fire for refusing to trust in and live by the Truth as God has it through the Scriptures.



It can remind you of whatever you like. If you believe in any god other than One Absolute, Infinite, Eternal, Immutable, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH as the One and Only God of the Bible then, as a child of Perdition, you are utterly lost...forever. And my guess is that because of your total indoctrination you are utterly impervious to anything I'm saying to you but one day, the realization of the truth of what I am telling you now will hit you so hard that it will blow you wide apart but by that time it will be to late to do anything about it as you suddenly realize that you have been utterly deceived by Satan and his emmissaries the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.



The Trinitarian Nature of God is not a 'man-made imposition'. It is the Truth, as revealed by God through the Scriptures.



It is different because faith in the One True God (as He actually is and not as we would like Him to be) is integral to salvation whereas, for Gentiles at least, circumcision of the flesh (but not the heart) is not required for salvation.

The first century Church in Jerusalem did not impose the doctrine of the Trinity upon the Gentile believers because the doctrine of the Trinitarian Nature of God was not formally codified until the fourth century (Doh!) Nevertheless, the Church believed the truth of the Trinitarian Nature of God long before it was formally codified.



Not true. The Trinitarian concept comes from the One True God who alone exists as Trinitarian and has revealed Himself as such throughout the Scriptures (to those who have eyes to see).




Just because Satan counterfeited the Trinity through the other false religions does not mean that the original is also false (otherwise what would Satan have to counterfeit)?



This is a total distortion of the Truth. Worshipping God as Trinitarian (because, according to the Scriptures, that is how He exists) is not the same as worhipping the false gods of the Canaanites, the Babylonians or the Egyptians.



Because it is the Truth. YHWH IS Trinitarian in Nature and there is no salvation in believing that He is Unitarian in Nature any more than there is salvation in believing that you are Mickey Mouse! If you don't believe the Truth then there is no salvation, it's as simple as that.

Simonline.


EX 32:33 “And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.” [NOTE: This is an Old Testament/pre-Jesus scripture]

MATT 7:21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
MATT 19:17 “And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”

MATT 19:29 “And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”

MATT 25:1-13 “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

MARK 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”

LUKE 7:50 “ And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”

LUKE 10:27-28 “and [a lawyer] answering [Jesus] said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And [Jesus] said unto him, Thou has answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" [inherit eternal life--see vs 25]
[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]LUKE 12:46 “The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." [also read verses before and after]
[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]LUKE 13:23-24 “Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.”


[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 3:1-6 "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: the same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 3:15-21 “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”


[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 4:10 Living water is a “gift of God”


[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 4:14 “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”


[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 5:24 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him [God] that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”


[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 5:28-29 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”


[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 5:39-40 “Search the scriptures [O.T.], for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”


[FONT=ARIAL, ARIAL,TIMES NEW ROMAN]JOHN 6:27-29 “Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
http://www.clarion-call.org/extras/salvtion.htm

I rely upon what scripture says regarding salvation, not what trinitarian dogma says regarding salvation. Jesus saves, the trinity saves no one, If you are relying on trinity to save you you are sadly mistaken. "Jesus saves, Jesus saves. " you mighta heard of that song.
 
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YeshuamySalvation

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That's because YHWH (the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) is essentially Trinitarian in Nature and if you're putting your trust in any other god then, come Judgment Day, you are going to be catastrophically disappointed.
Thats a Lie. Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey is not three gods in one. Judaism has never taught such a doctrine ever. Neither can you prove Judeo believers in Mashiyach taught it.



That's correct, we do. That's because anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet denies the essential Trinitarian Nature of God is, by definition, a heretic.
This response is far from addressing the actual point. It's the response of a person that cannot muster an actual argument.


No you won't. Since Trinitarianism has been universally recognized as orthodox Christian doctrine since at least the fourth century and believed by the Church to be the truth well before then (even though it was not officially codified into official doctrine until the fourth century),
What was really codified in the fourth century is anti-Jewish at best and has no bearing in this discussion. Ekklesia does not always mean a group of Messianic believers. Ekklesia can also be used in the Greek in referance to a meeting between a group of politcle leaders. Furthermore, Moshe was said to be in the Church (Ekklesia) in the desert Acts 7:38. Now, explain to us why does scripture fail to codify your Trinity????

then the onus is on those who reject the doctrine of the Trinity (rather than those who uphold it) to ligitimately demonstrate (Q.E.D.) that the Trinity is actually false teaching and only then would the Christian Church be morally obligated to reject the doctrine of the Trinity in favour of a different doctrine concerning the essential Nature of YHWH.
No, i have placed the burden on you to prove it. If it's not codified in Scripture as it was in the nicean council, then by default is false. God does not have to Subdivide himself into different and distinced dieties.




It is not incumbent upon the Church to have to justify why she holds to the doctrine of the Trinity to each and every generation simply because some people in each and every generation simply refuse to believe the truth (why should YHWH have to constantly justify Himself to Satan)?
Actually, it is belief in the Trinity that has Satanic background masquarded as Christian. It was Nimrod his wife and Child that were considered a Divine Trinity. Hinduism also promotes Trinitarian dieties. To say that we need to believe in your dogma to be saved violates scripture and promotes legalism.



If, hypothetically speaking, the situation were reversed and Unitarianism were the universally accepted Truth and the Church had been essentially Unitarian for the past two millennia whilst Trinitarianism were heresy, then the onus would be on the Trinitarians to demonstrate why Unitarianism was false and Trinitarianism the Truth, then, should the Trinitarians succeed, the Unitarian Church would be morrally obligated to repudiate their Unitarianism and embrace Trinitarianism as the Truth.
I'm not Unitarian and obviously they are not the Topic of Discussion. It is your Trinity that is being Challanged and so far you have failed in defending it.



This is such a pathetic argument that it really needs to be laid to rest, once and for all. Such an argument is the mark of one who has been utterly indoctrinated by a heretical cult to such an extent that they are no longer capable of marshalling any better arguments against the Trinity
Can you prove any of the above empty accusations?? Actually it is you who has failed to address the argument. Where does scripture teach a codification of the Triunity?? The argument i presented is an argument, unlike what you've mustered which is no argument at all. I guess your strategy is to resort to empty accusals and defamation.




As is only to be expected from one who has been completely indoctrinated into a heretical cult, this is a total distortion of the truth. If one does not place one's faith in the God who is actually there (i.e. YHWH, as the God of the Judeo-Christian Scriptures) then one does not have salvation. One is still dead in one's trespasses and sins because one has placed one's trust in a false god who does not actually exist in objective reality but only as a projection of human imagination on the basis of demonic deception (2Cor.4:4)
2 Cor 4:4 does not support what you have added to Scripture, namely a Trinity. Using your false logic, then we must consider all Judaism damed even Moses the greatest prophet. Judaism has never promoted a Trinity that consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit similar to that of the Son god Tammuz. Such subdivisions are considered Polythiestic to Jews. Moreover, the Torah does not teach a Trinity but Strict Monotheism. New Testament Scripture are no different, God is one! Do not add to Scripture what is not there Deut 4:2;12:32.



If they are not trusting in the One True God who is actually there (who exists as Trinitarian, not Unitarian, in Nature) then what's in their hearts won't matter, they will still end up as children of Perdition in the everlasting Lake of Fire for refusing to trust in and live by the Truth as God has it through the Scriptures.
Leave unitarians out of this. I am not Unitarian, so your argument is irrelevant. Scripture does not teach that God is Trinitarian in nature. It is you, like many of the legalistic teachers who has added this to Scripture to your own benefit. This thread is on the Trinity not on what Unitarians teach, so you'd do well respecting the actual topic rather then resorting to your strawman. Unitarians have nothing to prove in this thread. The burden is on you to prove your Trinity as Truth, and that scripture teaches that it saves to believe that God consists of three gods in one.


It can remind you of whatever you like. If you believe in any god other than One Absolute, Infinite, Eternal, Immutable, Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient and Tri-Personal Divine Creator, YHWH as the One and Only God of the Bible then, as a child of Perdition, you are utterly lost...forever.
Well, the same rule applies for you. How many gods do you believe in? As far as i know scripture does not say God is a Tripersonal being and neither has Judaism ever taught such a false concept of the nature of God. It was those who actually turned to Tammuz that began to worship it's Trinity!

And my guess is that because of your total indoctrination you are utterly impervious to anything I'm saying to you but one day, the realization of the truth of what I am telling you now will hit you so hard that it will blow you wide apart but by that time it will be to late to do anything about it as you suddenly realize that you have been utterly deceived by Satan and his emmissaries the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
ahahaahahaha, yes it certainly is your guess. Like everything you do is guess. You guess that God consists of a divine Trinity and you can't prove it. You guess that i've been indoctrinated which i have not. You also guess that i believe as the Watch Tower and Tract Society believes which i do not.




The Trinitarian Nature of God is not a 'man-made imposition'. It is the Truth, as revealed by God through the Scriptures.
It certainly is, you haven't proven otherwise.
 
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PattyOfurniture

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I agree that my understanding of Scripture is facile.and I admit i'm blind concerning not seeing any verse whatsoever stating...""if you do not believe Jesus is God,you are condemned" or "if you do not believe in a trinity you will be judged "..can you please help and post that verse.thank you

btw,if satan counterfeited the "trinity' in other false religions,he needs to get his Demons on board(refer to signature below))
 
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PattyOfurniture

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Thats a Lie. Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey is not three gods in one. Judaism has never taught such a doctrine ever. Neither can you prove Judeo believers in Mashiyach taught it.



This response is far from addressing the actual point. It's the response of a person that cannot muster an actual argument.


What was really codified in the fourth century is anti-Jewish at best and has no bearing in this discussion. Ekklesia does not always mean a group of Messianic believers. Ekklesia can also be used in the Greek in referance to a meeting between a group of politcle leaders. Furthermore, Moshe was said to be in the Church (Ekklesia) in the desert Acts 7:38. Now, explain to us why does scripture fail to codify your Trinity????

No, i have placed the burden on you to prove it. If it's not codified in Scripture as it was in the nicean council, then by default is false. God does not have to Subdivide himself into different and distinced dieties.



Actually, it is belief in the Trinity that has Satanic background masquarded as Christian. It was Nimrod his wife and Child that were considered a Divine Trinity. Hinduism also promotes Trinitarian dieties. To say that we need to believe in your dogma to be saved violates scripture and promotes legalism.


I'm not Unitarian and obviously they are not the Topic of Discussion. It is your Trinity that is being Challanged and so far you have failed in defending it.


Can you prove any of the above empty accusations?? Actually it is you who has failed to address the argument. Where does scripture teach a codification of the Triunity?? The argument i presented is an argument, unlike what you've mustered which is no argument at all. I guess your strategy is to resort to empty accusals and defamation.



2 Cor 4:4 does not support what you have added to Scripture, namely a Trinity. Using your false logic, then we must consider all Judaism damed even Moses the greatest prophet. Judaism has never promoted a Trinity that consists of Father, Son and Holy Spirit similar to that of the Son god Tammuz. Such subdivisions are considered Polythiestic to Jews. Moreover, the Torah does not teach a Trinity but Strict Monotheism. New Testament Scripture are no different, God is one! Do not add to Scripture what is not there Deut 4:2;12:32.



Leave unitarians out of this. I am not Unitarian, so your argument is irrelevant. Scripture does not teach that God is Trinitarian in nature. It is you, like many of the legalistic teachers who has added this to Scripture to your own benefit. This thread is on the Trinity not on what Unitarians teach, so you'd do well respecting the actual topic rather then resorting to your strawman. Unitarians have nothing to prove in this thread. The burden is on you to prove your Trinity as Truth, and that scripture teaches that it saves to believe that God consists of three gods in one.


Well, the same rule applies for you. How many gods do you believe in? As far as i know scripture does not say God is a Tripersonal being and neither has Judaism ever taught such a false concept of the nature of God. It was those who actually turned to Tammuz that began to worship it's Trinity!

ahahaahahaha, yes it certainly is your guess. Like everything you do is guess. You guess that God consists of a divine Trinity and you can't prove it. You guess that i've been indoctrinated which i have not. You also guess that i believe as the Watch Tower and Tract Society believes which i do not.



It certainly is, you haven't proven otherwise.
Told ya so.....lol
 
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YeshuamySalvation

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Told ya so.....lol
Hello again my friend.
Actually what i saw was a bunch of empty accusations and personal attacks. Assuming he knows what he doesn't. All of my questions were ignored. Goes to show how some people can become dogmatic about a "theological term" and require it important for the Salvation of others; and by thus doing they invalidate God's word with there Traditions!
 
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2ducklow

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Funny how I am condemned in one thread for saying the no no word logic, then in another thread that person discredits anothers doctrine as being based on false logic, go figure. Anyway looks like the trinitarians have departed once again. What can they say really when confrontedd with the utter and complete illogic of practically every thing they say but blast us and leave? Use to be a lot of um that came in here. There is no real debating with trinity, because there is nothing to defend, Just blast people, in the final analysis, is all they can do.
 
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2ducklow

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I guess the unspoken rule is "logic is necessary for everyone elses doctrine except mine". seems to be a pretty universal principle. I guess logic is only bad when it exposes ones contradictions and illogic, other wise it is fine and dandy. How people can shift gears so quickly from logic is bad to logic is good is amazing. Guess people have short memorys. On the other hand,It must be rough having to defend a doctrine that makes no sense, is contradictory and illlogical, glad I don't have any of those problems with my doctrine. LIkewise it must be rough debating with someone who has no illogic in their doctrine when one has beaucoup (vietnam era word, i remember fondly that boot camp marching song "I wanna go to vietnam, I wanna kill ole charlie cong, left right left") illogic in their own doctrine.

Anyway looks like the trinitarians have departed once again. I mean it gets kinda repetative saying "you're a heretic" over and over and over,
 
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PattyOfurniture

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yuppers,kinda hard to debate Jesus and James,Moses,Abraham,etc etc....
the knowledge of the oneness of God is so beyond question in the early church that James basically says..."yeah yeah ofcourse you believe God is one you big dope,your nothing special.even the Demons know god is one yet they tremble from fear,if you feared God like even the Demons do you'd be out feeding the widows and orphans you knuckleheads....."
 
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2ducklow

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But doesn't Unitarian mean believing in one God?
Yea, here's how it breaks down for most folks.

unitarian = one god who is YHWH or also called God the Father, who is also known as the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not God. Jesus is the son of God.


Trinitarian = 3 persons of god each of which is god all by himself but you can't add the 3 beings up unless you call them persons of God, when you call each one God such as God the Father , God the Son, and God the holy Spirit, you can't add them up according to trinity theology, All of them add up to one God, according to Trinity 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. See if you added up every being that trinitarians call god then they would be polythiests cause they have 3 beings they each call god. So in order to add the 3 beings up so that they won't be polythiests you have to call them persons of g od, then they are only polypersons of god, not polythiests. I know it's a bit complicated and nonsensical but that's the ball game.

ONeness = ONe God who is God the Father, or also known as YHWH, . According to most oneness folks God manifests in 3 ways, as the father, the son and the holy spirit.

I am oneness/unitarian. ONeness in that i accept most all of the oneness doctrine, except the nonsensical parts like Jesus is his own daddy or that God manifests as Jesus or as the holy spirit. I am not unitarian in the sense that I do not affiliate with the non penetcostal nature of the unitarian church. But I believe YHWH or also known as God the Father , is the one annd only true God. Jesus is not God, he is the son of God, the holy spirit is the spirit of YHWH or God the Father.

course some in here blend trinity with oneness unbeknownst to them, and of course there are other doctrines such as mormon JW etc with which I am not very familiar.
 
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