The Christian of the Future Will Either Be a Mystic or Cease to Be.

[timothyu]

Karma sounds like a corruption of the doctrine of sin

The thing is that it predates the doctrine of sin

 

[Jonaitis]

IMO, this thread has unsurprisingly turned into a representation of the tension between dogmatism and experience. The Bible say x vs. There is a perennial experience that seems to transcend the dogmatic claims of any particular faith. I don't think these two have to be in tension, but the dogmatist will always be limited by their dogma. And, as soon as dogmatism enters the discussion, it turns from dialogue to debate. I don't find any of that surprising.

Dogmatism can only assert truth claims; they cannot prove anything. Those who have experience, as ineffable as it is, can say, "You don't have to believe what I say. Seek as I have done, and find out for yourself." There is an empirical element to mysticism in so far as most anyone can take up a practice and experience it for themselves. There's no need for debate. Dogmatism can only assert and argue.

Well said! This should be the concluding post of this whole discussion. If what I am saying is wrong, then take it as you see fit. I have no motivation to argue about something that only the individual can discover on their own. It does no good for the hearer.

 

[eleos1954]

perennial experience

perennial experience

what is the definition of this?

 

[public hermit]

Well said! This should be the concluding post of this whole discussion. If what I am saying is wrong, then take it as you see fit. I have no motivation to argue about something that only the individual can discover on their own. It does no good for the hearer.

Not to embarrass you, but I have to say, I've admired your humility and graciousness in this thread.

 

[public hermit]

what is the definition of this?

I should have phrased that differently. I meant there is an experience that seems to transcend the particulars of any given dogma. "Perennial" was not a helpful word choice; my apologies.

 

[timothyu]

I meant there is an experience that seems to transcend the particulars of any given dogma.

God's truth? The foundation Jesus said of his followers? Everything man touches seems to be for the purpose of serving some aspect of man, not the Kingdom.

 

[eleos1954]

I should have phrased that differently. I meant there is an experience that seems to transcend the particulars of any given dogma. "Perennial" was not a helpful word choice; my apologies.

ok ..... then what is this?

there is an experience that seems to transcend the particulars
of any given dogma

 

[public hermit]

God's truth? The foundation Jesus said of his followers? Everything man touches seems to be for the purpose of serving some aspect of man, not the Kingdom.

The experience I'm referencing necessarily shuts down the ego or it doesn't happen, and that's true, as far as I am aware, of mystics in the various Christian traditions as well as those in various religions.

Your insistence that the main issue is the conflict between the kingdom of man and the kingdom of God, with which I agree, is commensurate with the outcome of the contemplative life. That outcome is the denial of self for the sake of the divine presence and will, at least in the various threads of mysticism in the Christian traditions.

 

[Andrewn]

I think Eastern religions can interpret atonement in terms of karma. Jesus took on our bad karma.

I don't think _they_ do. But _I_ agree with you that the atonement can be interpreted in terms of karma: the law of sin and death.

 

[public hermit]

ok ..... then what is this?

I can't explain it, but you can experience it, and probably have at one time or another, i.e., the experience of the divine presence. Admittedly, I can only speak of my own experience in the context of my own faith. But there are marks that show up everywhere: diminishing of ego, peace, abiding in the moment, compassion for all, etc.

 

[Jonaitis]

I don't think _they_ do. But _I_ agree with you that the atonement can be interpreted in terms of karma: the law of sin and death.

I find it interesting that renunciation of one's fruit of action in Eastern thought is similar to the Christian thought of denying one's self-righteousness and clinging to Christ's for salvation. The parallel is astounding if one looks deep enough into it.

 

[Jonaitis]

I can't explain it, but you can experience it, and probably have at one time or another, i.e., the experience of the divine presence. Admittedly, I can only speak of my own experience in the context of my own faith. But there are marks that show up everywhere: diminishing of ego, peace, abiding in the moment, compassion for all, etc.

I feel that metanoia (repentance) captures a glimpse of it that we all know intimately. We have experienced (of not still) to some degree. Our pesky ego is reflected in the division of flesh/spirit

 

[public hermit]

I feel that metanoia (repentance) captures a glimpse of it that we all know intimately. We have experienced (of not still) to some degree. Our pesky ego is reflected in the division of flesh/spirit

I think folks tend to think of repentance as a one time act, but if it is understood as a way of life, then that does come very close, i.e., a continual denial of self and turning to God.

 

[Jonaitis]

I think folks tend to think of repentance as a one time act, but if it is understood as a way of life, then that does come very close, i.e., a continual denial of self and turning to God.

Exactly. It is the heart, in one sense, of true piety. Sanctification is not merely becoming "better," but continually changing the direction of our lives and former ways of thinking, acting, speaking, etc. It is on going.

 

[timothyu]

That outcome is the denial of self for the sake of the divine presence and will, at least in the various threads of mysticism in the Christian traditions.

Agreed, as in others

 

[timothyu]

Exactly. It is the heart, in one sense, of true piety. Sanctification is not merely becoming "better," but continually changing the direction of our lives and former ways of thinking, acting, speaking, etc. It is on going.

Jesus taught us to think with our hearts rather than our minds, which of course are wired for animal instinct.

 

[eleos1954]

I can't explain it, but you can experience it, and probably have at one time or another, i.e., the experience of the divine presence. Admittedly, I can only speak of my own experience in the context of my own faith. But there are marks that show up everywhere: diminishing of ego, peace, abiding in the moment, compassion for all, etc.

His divine presence .... is the work of the Holy Spirit ... and indeed changes our thinking and attitudes about many things and continues throughout our earthly lifetime. The Holy Spirit leads us to the truth .... and the truth is His written word.

John 17:17
King James Bible
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 14:15-31

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit​

15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you.26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

AMEN!!!!

 

[Jonaitis]

Jesus taught us to think with our hearts rather than our minds, which of course are wired for animal instinct.

When you say "heart", I think of Jeremiah 17:9

"The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can know it?"

Paul did not contradict Jesus when he said,

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may approve what the will of God is, that which is good and pleasing and perfect."
- Romans 12:2

The change that takes place in our heart begins with the control center—the mind. Your heart must be informed by the mind, and the mind by the Spirit. Sometimes "spirit" and "mind" are interchangeable in scripture, and that is by no coincidence. We must renew the way we think, and this will renew the way we act and behave.

 

[timothyu]

When you say "heart", I think of Jeremiah 17:9

As usual, there are two ways to look at the heart, from the mind of man or from the mind of the Kingdom.

 

[Jonaitis]

As usual, there are two ways to look at the heart, from the mind of man or from the mind of the Kingdom.

Is one of the kingdom in accord with the conforming to Christ? Then we are in agreement.