The Christian of the Future Will Either Be a Mystic or Cease to Be.

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,049
North Carolina
✟273,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You yourself stated that there should be caution, but you haven't explained what it is that we should be cautious about.

We should be exceedingly cautious about venturing beyond the borders of what Scripture presents and validates.

The spiritual world is a tricky world, with spirits masquerading as angels of light to deceive humans who traffic there.

As God's command (Ge 2:17) was Adam's protection from evil, so the boundaries of the Scriptures are our protection from spiritual deception.
 
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,050
East Coast
✟830,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
@public hermit I was thinking this morning about the difference between Christian Mysticism and Charismatic/Pentecostalism in relationship to the divine presence.

Whereas the goal of Christian Mysticism is to find and dwell in the divine presence, in Charismatic/Pentecostalism it is a benefit, but not the goal. Correct me if I am wrong on the Mysticism part.

The goal in Charismatic/Pentecostalism is to operate in the power of spiritual gifts. So the focus is on helping others with physical healing, deliverance from demonic strongholds, edification through prophetic encouragement, and so on.

So, I can't really consider myself a part of Christian Mysticism solely on the basis that I enjoy the divine presence. Though I am free to practice. And I suppose at some point a person could claim both.

This begs a question, I suppose. Do some/many who practice Christian Mysticism experience prophetic events? Dreams, visions, insights, messages, encounters, and the like. I seem to remember seeing portions from the writing of Teresa of Avila that were a bit extreme.

There have been Christian mystics who have had extraordinary experiences. There are some that have been very extreme, a number of the beguines come to mind.

There has also been a thread that cautions against taking them to heart. St. John of the Cross, for instance, strongly suggests ignoring any visions, insights , appearance, etc., because they can be misleading and turn one's focus from God. Or, he says, they can be fraudulent and produced by Satan. So he says that if it is from God, the benefit of the vision or whatever will be implanted in the soul by God so that it can be forgotten and one can keep their focus on God. Only God has access to the contemplative's soul, he thinks, so if it is good its benefit will be so implanted; therefore, let the memory of it pass and trust God.

I would caution against thinking of the goal of contemplation being the enjoyment of the divine presence, at least in this life. But I think you're right that finding/abiding in the divine presence is the goal. Perhaps union would be a better way of putting it? Again with St. John of the Cross, who is well-known for his phrase "dark night of the soul." Many Christian contemplatives speak of a season of dryness where God removes all forms of consolation so that the soul becomes wholly dependant on God alone instead of depending on the benefits that often come with leading a contemplative life. So perhaps union is a better notion of the goal, but even that is limited in this life. I think it was Thomas Merton who said that as a contemplative, each day he starts over as a beginner.

The question about serving others is important because this has been a recurring issue usually framed as a debate regarding the relationship between the contemplative life focused on God and the active life of serving others. There are some who are extreme like St. Isaac of Syria who says the solitary who has devoted their life to contemplation is absolved from the command to love and serve others. o_O I just read that the other day and was astounded, to say the least.

I prefer Meister Eckhart who is clear that the practice of contemplation is for the sake of service. He comes right out and says 1) once your period of contemplative prayer is over get to work and 2) if your neighbor needs your help and you are engaged in contemplation, stop and help them.

I think the fact that contemplation is partly aimed at negating the ego/false self (some are extreme in this area imo), and that it is intended to diminish selfishness works toward enabling one to better serve others. Even in my own practice, I have noticed when working and serving others my focus is such that I am not overly concerned with mental traffic about myself in that moment. I can be much more present, even in the simple act of listening to what the other person is saying.

It's interesting that spiritual gifts are primarily intended to serve others and any enjoyment is a side benefit and not the goal. I had never considered that, but it makes sense.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,191
4,204
Wyoming
✟122,609.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
We should be exceedingly cautious about venturing beyond the borders of what Scripture presents and validates.

The spiritual world is a tricky world, with spirits masquerading as angels of light to deceive humans who traffic there.

As God's command (Ge 2:17) was Adam's protection from evil, so the boundaries of the Scriptures are our protection from spiritual deception.
Usually, such commands, especially in the Old Testament, were to prevent men from being introduced into idolatry.
Superstition is not biblical, and should have no place in the Christian's worldview imo.
It is similar to Paul's argument that other gods don't actually exist, though some Christians in his day believed they did.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,437
8,394
up there
✟303,756.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
My favourite example of contemplation was in the Bill Murray version of The Razor's Edge movie, where alone and freezing on a mountain top surrounded by books, he comes to the realization that nothing in this world of man matters and that God cannot be found in books but must be experienced, where he then burned the book for it's real purpose at the time.. to get warm, then went out and became one with creation. The goodness he felt stayed with him (but that is not to say anyone in a similar position will not fall off the path and back into the world of man...parable of the sower)
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Michie

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
165,483
55,182
Woods
✟4,582,836.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Haha! The guy’s life was spicy enough as is. Read up on him. He lived a long life but he had his issues. I got hooked when I saw ‘Of Human Bondage’. That got me started in reading his works. Researching his life helped me understand his works. BTW, this was supposed to be a comment to your post. Not another post. Sorry for derailing. :)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's interesting that spiritual gifts are primarily intended to serve others and any enjoyment is a side benefit and not the goal. I had never considered that, but it makes sense.
Thanks for your informative post. Lots to discuss. I picked this paragraph to respond to for now.

In my posted list I didn't include tongues. Of which I can identify at least five different kinds, or uses. (list below)
Number three below is what I would call the GIFT of tongues listed in I Corinthians chapter twelve.

Number five would be the outpouring at Pentecost, and other historic outpourings.

Numbers one and four are the most personally edifying. Consigning our most unruly member (tongue) to the Spirit. This is usually quite enjoyable, and very much criticized. As you know. --- Most ignorant folks will use only one of the five as their definition, and dismiss the rest. (sigh)

Best reference for number two below would be this scripture. But most are hung up on the word "groans". But anyone that has experienced this, recognizes it immediately. This can be used in prayer ministry for others, or personally, which is more likely when the groans would occur.

Romans 8:26 NIV
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1)
Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
... ... Numbers one and four are the most personally edifying. Consigning our most unruly member (tongue) to the Spirit. This is usually quite enjoyable, and very much criticized. As you know. --- Most ignorant folks will use only one of the five as their definition, and dismiss the rest. (sigh)

Best reference for number two below would be this scripture. But most are hung up on the word "groans". But anyone that has experienced this, recognizes it immediately. This can be used in prayer ministry for others, or personally, which is more likely when the groans would occur.

Romans 8:26 NIV
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1)
Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

Man, that's one HUGE debate, just right there alone. Did I say HUGE? Huge!

But what do I know since I only listen to "ignorant" Christians on the issue of "Charismatic Gifts." Geez! :dontcare:

Steven, I'm sorry you feel rejected by other Christians, but you really need to let go of this attitude of yours. Otherwise, we'll never get to talk about Peter Enns or any other Christians like him with whom we both find something of rational value.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,049
North Carolina
✟273,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Usually, such commands, especially in the Old Testament, were to prevent men from being introduced into idolatry.
Superstition is not biblical, and should have no place in the Christian's worldview imo.
It is similar to Paul's argument that other gods don't actually exist, though some Christians in his day believed they did.
Not too sure how superstition got into this. . .I'm not talking about the superstition of other gods.
Are you unaware of the NT's revelation of the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms; e.g., Ro 8:38, Eph 3:10, Eph 6:12, Col 2:15?
Are you unaware of the NT's warning to test the spirits (1 Jn 4:1)?
We are responsible for the disastrous outcome if we fail to heed God's warnings.

"What you do not know will not hurt you" does not apply to Scripture.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hmm

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
Sep 27, 2019
4,866
5,025
34
Shropshire
✟186,359.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
But what do I know since I only listen to "ignorant" Christians on the issue of "Charismatic Gifts." Geez!

Perhaps before jumping on people for the use of a word you don't like, you should check that it has the same connotations for them as it does for you. Otherwise, it sounds dangerously like virtue signaling.

I often come across the word "ignorance" in Christian literature, e.g. this article in Christianity Today Error Through Ignorance

The word is also often used in Buddhist literature:

Avidyā (Sanskrit: अविद्या; Pāli: अविज्जा, Avijjā; Tibetan phonetic: ma rigpa) in Buddhist literature is commonly translated as "ignorance".[1][2][3] The concept refers to ignorance or misconceptions about the nature of metaphysical reality,
Avidyā (Buddhism) - Wikipedia
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Perhaps before jumping on people for the use of a word you don't like, you should check that it has the same connotations for them as it does for you. Otherwise, it sounds dangerously like virtue signaling.

I often come across the word "ignorance" in Christian literature, e.g. this article in Christianity Today Error Through Ignorance

The word is also often used in Buddhist literature:

Avidyā (Sanskrit: अविद्या; Pāli: अविज्जा, Avijjā; Tibetan phonetic: ma rigpa) in Buddhist literature is commonly translated as "ignorance".[1][2][3] The concept refers to ignorance or misconceptions about the nature of metaphysical reality,
Avidyā (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

I think you NEED to let Steven speak for himself before attempting to coming to his aid... It would be the better hermeneutical thing to do where exegesis of Steven's meaning is of interest.

Otherwise, it appears like you're reaching for some kind of answer that doesn't fit the actuality or the context of this thread. And to do so would be an "ignorant" thing to do. It's also called sophistry and syncretism. As the first lines of the article you pulled from Christianity Today nicely state--and in application to yourself:

The greatest protection from error is knowing the truth. “What you do not know will not hurt you”—this does not apply to the Christian and his Bible. Much more applicable is Alexander Pope’s dictum, “A little learning is a dangerous thing; drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.” Error stems from ignorance and superficial knowledge.​

So, I recommend that you avoid that kind of thing. It makes Universalism look bad, and I know you guys are wanting to sell it as best you can, even with a little learning.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Perhaps before jumping on people for the use of a word you don't like, you should check that it has the same connotations for them as it does for you. Otherwise, it sounds dangerously like virtue signaling.

I often come across the word "ignorance" in Christian literature, e.g. this article in Christianity Today Error Through Ignorance

The word is also often used in Buddhist literature:

Avidyā (Sanskrit: अविद्या; Pāli: अविज्जा, Avijjā; Tibetan phonetic: ma rigpa) in Buddhist literature is commonly translated as "ignorance".[1][2][3] The concept refers to ignorance or misconceptions about the nature of metaphysical reality,
Avidyā (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

And yes, I'm aware of what "ignorance" generally is in Buddhist literature. Frankly, I'm not concerned with that.

For me, it's either Jesus, or Bust into Oblivion, baby! (I'd probably have made a good Zen Buddhist if I'd gone that direction.) :sorry:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,437
8,394
up there
✟303,756.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Are you unaware of the NT's warning to test the spirits (1 Jn 4:1)?
We are responsible for the disastrous outcome if we fail to heed God's warnings.
Agreed but this also means test each person, we are all spirit. Discernment is not only for testing religious authority but yes spirits outside our natural realm. You are aware that 'exorcism' was as common in Jesus' day among the Jews as street cart vendors today. If a person was considered to have been invaded by a good spirit that made them better the idea was to leave it in place. Even they used discernment.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,966
12,050
East Coast
✟830,354.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I think this is apropos to some of the discussion in this thread. It's an interview/testimony of Joseph Patchett and his contemplative experience. I saw this year's ago and had been looking for it and stumbled on it today. He had been in a wreck, was in a body cast, and reading a biography of a Hindu Priest who believed in a one true God who is love. Patchett begins to have faith in this God and has a profound, ongoing experience. He eventually reads a New Testament, and identifies this God as the one he reads about in the New Testament. It's long, but in the first twenty minutes or so talks about his experience, which I would say appropriately fits into this discussion of mysticism.

ETA: He also discusses his own experience of the "dark night of the soul."

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,924
6,049
North Carolina
✟273,604.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I think this is apropos to some of the discussion in this thread. It's an interview/testimony of Joseph Patchett and his contemplative experience. I saw this year's ago and had been looking for it and stumbled on it today. He had been in a wreck, was in a body cast, and reading a biography of a Hindu Priest who believed in a one true God who is love. Patchett begins to have faith in this God and has a profound, ongoing experience. He eventually reads a New Testament, and identifies this God as the one he reads about in the New Testament. It's long, but in the first twenty minutes or so talks about his experience, which I would say appropriately fits into this discussion of mysticism.


God is not limited in the means he uses to bring anyone to saving faith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: public hermit
Upvote 0