The Chapter-A-Day thread.

[Mazvita]

Which chapters are we reading

 

[bcmom]

Which chapters are we reading

We're reading Genesis at the moment, one chapter at a time. Today we're on Genesis 16. Hope that helps
God bless

 

[graciesings]

Welcome to Jimmy and Mazvita! I would be glad to have you jump in

So Genesis 16 is the story of Hagar. (most Muslims trace their descent from Ishmael, her son.)

I thought it was interesting seeing the difference between the times then and now... I don't think I know any woman who would talk her husband into sleeping with a servant so that he could have a child? That must have gone out of style or something.

God bless,
Grace

 

[brinny]

re: chapter 16: what kinda stands out for me is the contempt Ha'gar held against Sarai after Ha'gar gave birth. This indicates what kind of heart condition Ha'gar had. Whoa! Yeah, Sarai made a mistake giving Ha'gar to Abram as his wife, but Ha'gar turned on Sarai in such a nasty way, disrespecting her and rubbing her face in it. It indicates what kind of person Ha'gar was. She was putting Sarai to shame...what a horrendous thing to do. God, however, had mercy on Ha'gar, and grace, sending her back to Sarai with the condition that Ha'gar submit herself to her mistress, Sarai's hands....i'm thinkin' that God most likely prepared Sarai's heart to receive her back, and that Ha'gar's "submitting" herself to her mistress's Sarai's hands (as stated in verse 9) also indicates that Ha'gar is to apologize to Sarai.

 

[graciesings]

Ok, late again... Long day but good physics class. I talked the teacher into raising my test score to a 75 and shot balloons at my friend!

So today's (March 7th's) chapter is Genesis 17. Here's a link: Genesis 17 ESV - Abraham and the Covenant of - Bible Gateway

I'll comment tomorrow morning... tired...
God bless you,
Grace

 

[brinny]

Chapter 17: This is an AWESOME chapter. Here something phenomenal happens. God changes Abram's name to Abraham. Then God changes Sarai's name to Sarah. And God says that His covenant will be with Isaac, Abraham's son.

It seems to be of great significance throughout the Bible when God changes someone's name.

 

[Jimmy P]

Why again for the name change Brinny? This also happened to Jacob as well right, Israel?

 

[brinny]

Yes He did (and it was right after Jacob wrestled with God and as it is written "prevailed"), and it seems to be highly significant that God changes both Abram's and Sarai's names (and not just Abram's).

 

[graciesings]

I think that makes sense because now both of Isaac's parents were named by God. So God would change Sarah's name too...

That's interesting about God changing names. If you think about it many other important people in the Bible were named by God before their births also. "Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call him Isaac." (Genesis 17:19)

It also happens in Luke 1:13 and Matthew 1:21

 

[brinny]

interesting.....yes, and the significance seems to be of the 'eternal' kind...thank you for the verses....checking them out now...

 

[daughter of man]

It seems to be of great significance throughout the Bible when God changes someone's name.

Good point, I wonder if this has anything to do with why Catholics sometimes change their names like when they become ordained. In the Bible a lot of people seem to have been given their name because of its meaning and some of the meanings can be quite strange...

 

[brinny]

Good point, I wonder if this has anything to do with why Catholics sometimes change their names like when they become ordained. In the Bible a lot of people seem to have been given their name because of its meaning and some of the meanings can be quite strange...

Never thought of that....interesting that there seems to be significance in names with not only us, but with God.....intriguing...

isn't it mentioned in Revelation that we will all be given new names?

 

[graciesings]

You mean Revelation 3:12?

Maybe that is why popes change their names, I never thought of it that way.

I know I have changed my name, but ironically, not at my conversion. (In fact, not since my conversion...) I was Grace until I was 5, Lydia until I was 12, and then switched to Grace. As a note, it's amusing trying to convince people that I go by my middle name!

I suppose there are also some important names in the Bible that God didn't change or announce, though. Moses? David? Solomon? Mary? I suppose maybe in some cases God just guided the parents (or princess!) to the right name!

God bless,
Grace

 

[graciesings]

Ok, it's March 18th now. Today's chapter is Genesis 18. You can find it online here: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+18&version=RSV

I looked at this and went: Whoa. Who are the three men?

Here's a more liberal translation. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis+18&version=MSG I thought that would shed more light on the subject but not really.

So, are the three men angels? And God is speaking through the angels? Or are the three men the Trinity? Or are the three men just men and God visited Abraham at the same time?

Do you have any ideas? Thoughts? Questions?
God bless you,
Grace

 

[Jimmy P]

Here is what it seems like to me...

The 3 dudes, to me, sounds like the Lord and 2 Angels...notice how Abraham says Lord? The name wasn't refused...remember another time when somebody bowed to an Angel and the Angel said not to do that? This person did not say stop...

And you see several references to Lord...

And when they go to leave, Abraham is conversing with one dude...calling him Lord while the other 2 went on their way...

Remember, Sodom and Gomorrah, it was 2 Angels that went there, told Lot and his family to get out...2 Angels...

So, it loox like 2 Angels + the Lord = 3 Dudes coming to Abraham and Sarah...my 2 cents...

 

[TillICollapse]

Here is what it seems like to me...

The 3 dudes, to me, sounds like the Lord and 2 Angels...notice how Abraham says Lord? The name wasn't refused...remember another time when somebody bowed to an Angel and the Angel said not to do that? This person did not say stop...

And you see several references to Lord...

And when they go to leave, Abraham is conversing with one dude...calling him Lord while the other 2 went on their way...

Remember, Sodom and Gomorrah, it was 2 Angels that went there, told Lot and his family to get out...2 Angels...

So, it loox like 2 Angels + the Lord = 3 Dudes coming to Abraham and Sarah...my 2 cents...

This is a fascinating topic, imo.

When I did a word-by-word with the Hebrew Interlinear, I see several terms pop up in regards to the three men: Anshim (mortals) seems to be the one used in Gen 18. And of course Yahweh.

What's interesting to me is that these three (or perhaps Yahweh alone) claims they will return to Sarah and she will be pregnant. As though they needed to return in order for this to take place.

When we fast forward to Gen 21, where we see Sarah conceiving and the Lord returning at the appointed time, we see the name Yahweh mentioned again ... but now we also see the term Elohim mentioned, specifically in regards to what was spoken previously to them about the set time. It's my understanding that Elohim can also refer to "angels" or groups of "angels".

So it seems a bit ambiguous to me ... were the men with Yahweh mortals, or "Elohim" ? And is Elohim referring to Yahweh, the collective three of them, or angels specifically ?

The reason I find this fascinating and perhaps crucial, is because of all the "pregnancies" which seem to be crucial turning points in history.

Jesus is birthed by Mary, via the Holy Spirit and a female (obviously lol). It's announced by angels, etc and so forth.

Isaac is birthed by Sarah and arguably Abraham, however there is some intervention on behalf of Yahweh/Elohim ... whatever that means. And it is announced via those three.

So with Jesus and Mary, we have NO human male involved in the pregnancy of Mary. Just the Holy Spirit, and Mary. Angels announce it. However with Abraham and Sarah, Abraham is involved (a human male), it's announced by Yahweh/three mortals/Elohim ... and their involvement is somewhat confusing.

I'm not trying to open up a debate about Gen 6 ... only throwing this out there for contrast. In Gen 6, it's often debated if these Sons of God are spiritual beings/angels/etc which actually reproduce with human women. Considering that idea, the result was undesirable (the Nephilim). So, from that POV, you have an unsanctioned meddling with human females on behalf of these "Sons of God". We then have the earth filled with violence, the flood to wipe it all out, etc.

So when I look at it, I see a pattern:

* Unsanctioned meddling with humans (births) possibly in Gen 6 (the fallen ones). All wiped out. Possible spiritual beings mixing with humans.
* Sanctioned births with humans ... yielding Israel (he who struggles with God). Yahweh involved, possibly Elohim/angels.
* Divine birth, yielding Jesus the Christ. No males involved, no angels involved apart from announcing, Holy Spirit and human female only. Redemption of man.

I mean, I see a pattern in regards to crucial, debated, turning points in human history involving God, angels, and the birth of nations, and the symbolic nature of their names, their fate, etc. Again, I'm not trying to start a debate concerning conspiracy theories (I know what some of them are lol) or even if Gen 6 is actually describing "angels" and women making offspring. Just showing a pattern, and why perhaps identifying those other individuals in Gen 18 may yield a lot of insight. Personally, I have my own idea who one of them might be, but I'd be somewhat guessing ...

 

[graciesings]

That's a good idea, Jimmy P

TillICollapse, I'm still studying your post. It is awfully interesting. Thanks! (to both of you.)

 

[TillICollapse]

That's a good idea, Jimmy P

TillICollapse, I'm still studying your post. It is awfully interesting. Thanks! (to both of you.)

Cool

 

[thesunisout]

What's interesting is that in Genesis 18:5 and 18:9 the men appear to speak in concert:

Genesis 18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

Genesis 18:9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

At least that is how the translation makes it appear. I looked up the word

I looked up the Hebrew and there is a specific word (Strongs 559) for "And they said", in both instances. It is the word 'amar'

Hebrew Lexicon :: H559 (KJV)

What's even more intriguing is that it is the same word used in verse 10 for "And he said"

Genesis 18:10 And he said,H559 I will certainly returnH7725 H7725 untoH413 thee according to the timeH6256 of life;H2416 and, lo,H2009 SarahH8283 thy wifeH802 shall have a son.H1121 And SarahH8283 heardH8085 it in the tentH168 door,H6607 whichH1931 was behindH310 him.

So the translator used the same word as both plural and singular when referring to the men(or man) speaking. Why, I don't know, but it could imply the Trinity. A question would be, if two of the men were angels, why would they speak for God, or at the same time as God?

Maybe it's possible that the translation is not accurate and it shouldn't have said "And they said" at all, but rather "And he said" all three times. I don't really know; someone would have to understand the Hebrew to say for sure. What we do know is that at least one of the men is Jehovah:

Genesis 18:13 And the LORDH3068 saidH559 untoH413 Abraham

Hebrew Lexicon :: H3068 (KJV)

Strongs 3068:

Jehovah = "the existing One"
the proper name of the one true God

Later on, after the two other "men" leave, God refers to Himself in the singular:

Genesis 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

He also says that He will go personally and check out the situation, in the singular:

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Whether that means anything in context, I don't know. It would seem strange for the Lord to say that if the two other men were members of the Trinity and were already headed there. We also see later that two angels show up at Sodom. That makes me more inclined to believe that the two men are angels and not the other members of the Holy Trinity. Also, if one of those men was God the Father, it would seem to violate the scripture that says that no one has seen God at any time. I tend to think only the man who met with Abraham was the LORD, the preincarnate Christ.

 

[Jimmy P]

Wow, I love when folks really get into THIS much study of the word...I really do...I feel I learn new things...appreciate the insights from you TIC and thesun...

As far as Isaac, I don't believe we've ever known of him to be described as Nephalim...that I know of...cause wouldn't Isaac have had a giant stature? I believe when the Angels mated with human gals, the kids resulted in giants...I don't recall this descript applied to Isaac...