The Challenger: What's Wrong with this Picture?

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Thanks for the QED

I like how you don't even try.

 

[Enilorac]

Back to why the astronauts were smiling. They were not aware of the danger they were in.

 

[AV1611VET]

Back to why the astronauts were smiling. They were not aware of the danger they were in.

I agree.

But they should have been made aware, shouldn't they have?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I agree.

But they should have been made aware, shouldn't they have?

Since, by your own admission, you know more about the Challenger disaster than anyone thinks you do, was it shown, before the disaster occurred, that it would have lead to a catastrophic disaster? Not after, but before it occurred.

 

[AV1611VET]

Since, by your own admission, you know more about the Challenger disaster than anyone thinks you do, was it shown, before the disaster occurred, that it would have lead to a catastrophic disaster? Not after, but before it occurred.

I vote could have.

Thus the mission -- in my opinion -- should have been scrubbed.

But instead, they took a vote, and voted to move onward and upward.

And did so apparently without even letting the crew know there was something amiss in Chinatown going on behind closed doors.

That's why these people are smiling in that picture.

Not a hint that something [specific] needed to be checked into.

 

[Enilorac]

I agree.

But they should have been made aware, shouldn't they have?

We will not get into my feelings about the launch decision. Roger Mulloy and Arnie Aldrich should have been indicted and convicted of mass murder due to their stupid decision.

According to Mike Mullane's book, the astronauts were completely kept in the dark regarding the issues with the SRB joint designs. Again Mulloy and Aldrich would not authorize a stop to launches to let Allan McDonald and his engineering group take on the task of redesigning the joints.
There are very few people I hold a grudge against, those are 2 of them. We won't discuss my thoughts about certain people's inaction when it came to Columbia.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I vote could have.

Thus the mission -- in my opinion -- should have been scrubbed.

But instead, they took a vote, and voted to move onward and upward.

And did so apparently without even letting the crew know there was something amiss in Chinatown going on behind closed doors.

That's why these people are smiling in that picture.

Not a hint that something [specific] needed to be checked into.

But anything COULD have gone wrong in that launch, just like in every shuttle and rocket launch before that. Yet they don't scupper every launch when someone goes "This might go wrong!".

What you are describing is human error at its most basic: no-one thinks that their space flight is going to be the one that's going to end up exploding.

 

[Enilorac]

But anything COULD have gone wrong in that launch, just like in every shuttle and rocket launch before that. Yet they don't scupper every launch when someone goes "This might go wrong!".

Apollo 1 went horribly wrong. However they had tested close to 20 previous capsules using the same procedure. Nothing is without risk. Heck, I dislocated my ankle and broke 3 bones just by walking down a hill. Figure the odds.

 

[AV1611VET]

We will not get into my feelings about the launch decision. Roger Mulloy and Arnie Aldrich should have been indicted and convicted of mass murder due to their stupid decision.

Then why are we having this conversation?

It seems you and I are on the same page here.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Apollo 1 went horribly wrong. However they had tested close to 20 previous capsules using the same procedure. Nothing is without risk. Heck, I dislocated my ankle and broke 3 bones just by walking down a hill. Figure the odds.

Exactly. There is always a risk of something going wrong, even in environments that are considered perfectly safe and secure.

 

[Enilorac]

Then why are we having this conversation?

It seems you and I are on the same page here.

Maybe but I don't play coy with a "what's wrong with this picture" game. If you'd like to have a real discussion, with facts, figures, quotes from official reports and other sources, that would be nice.
I have studied many engineering disasters. Heck, I assign them to my students to research. Apollo 1, Apollo 13, Challenger, Columbia, Skylab, Tacoma Narrows, Titanic, Kansas City Hyatt, Thresher, Scorpion, 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, and more. The ones mentioned are the ones I've written papers on.

 

[AV1611VET]

But anything COULD have gone wrong in that launch, just like in every shuttle and rocket launch before that.

I agree.

But please note that I put "specific" in brackets.

Every one that sits in a rocket seat is putting his life in jeopardy.

But when three people notice something specific and recommend further testing,* then I believe they were OBLIGATED to do so.

At least morally obligated.

* Remember Frances Kelsey?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I agree.

But please note that I put "specific" in brackets.

Every one that sits in a rocket seat is putting his life in jeopardy.

But when three people notice something specific and recommend further testing (remember Frances Kelsey?), then I believe they were OBLIGATED to do so.

At least morally obligated.

And they did. And they were overruled by their higherups. Also, it turns out that the designer of the O-ring who saw the fault, and three other engineers, raised the problem at the engineering firm that made the parts, and they were overruled by higherups too.

So who's to blame here?

 

[AV1611VET]

Apollo 1 went horribly wrong.

Don't get me started on Apollo 1.

QV please:

That non-scientist probably has more safety features intact than NASA did with Apollo 1, with its hatch that opened outward.

 

[AV1611VET]

Exactly. There is always a risk of something going wrong,

And who creates a lot of those risks?

Remember the Hindenburg? where scientists put HYDROGEN into airships because Helium wasn't available?

That's like using dynamite sticks for candles.

 

[AV1611VET]

Maybe but I don't play coy with a "what's wrong with this picture" game. If you'd like to have a real discussion, with facts, figures, quotes from official reports and other sources, that would be nice.
I have studied many engineering disasters. Heck, I assign them to my students to research. Apollo 1, Apollo 13, Challenger, Columbia, Skylab, Tacoma Narrows, Titanic, Kansas City Hyatt, Thresher, Scorpion, 3 Mile Island, Chernobyl, and more. The ones mentioned are the ones I've written papers on.

From one of my previous posts:

Modern engineering also built the Apollo I capsule, the Titanic, the Hindenburg, Thalidomide, Vioxx, the Deepwater Horizon, Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant, Three Mile Island Power Plant, the Scorpion, the Challenger, the Columbia, and the Banqiao Reservoir Dam.

SOURCE

 

[AV1611VET]

So who's to blame here?

Satan

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

And who creates a lot of those risks?

Remember the Hindenburg? where scientists put HYDROGEN into airships because Helium wasn't available?

That's like using dynamite sticks for candles.

Okay, but what was the reason WHY the scientists in Germany had to use helium instead of hydrogen?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Satan

Dial it back a bit. I'll repeat what I said:

And they did. And they were overruled by their higherups. Also, it turns out that the designer of the O-ring who saw the fault, and three other engineers, raised the problem at the engineering firm that made the parts, and they were overruled by higherups too.

So who's to blame here?

 

[Enilorac]

Do you really think that engineering disasters are limited to the 20th century and beyond? If a person builds it, it has the ability to go wrong.