The challenge for Theistic Evolutionists

[Black Akuma]

First of all, people here regularly use quotes from Charles Darwin, though he died in 1882. Does that prove that any Darwin quotes published anywhere after he died are fraudulent? Are we to believe that nobody ever cites a reference from a previous source? Should we immediately accuse people of lying if they use a source that happens to be erroneous?

I didn't accuse the creationist who used the source of lying, but the person he got it from most certainly did. Somewhere down the line, someone lied.

Sir Arthur Keith didn't do the forward for the 100th edition. Period.

Evolutionists misquote the Bible all the time because they don't understand it in context.

I'm sorry, are we living in some parallel world where two wrongs make a right?

Should I immediately call you a liar every time you mistranslate something?

There's a big difference between mistranslating something and creating a quote that the party in question never actually wrote - and couldn't have possibly wrote, in this case, because, you know...dead. The former can be chalked up to incompetence. People make mistakes all the time. The latter actually took deliberate action - the creationist in question had to knowingly fabricate it, whole-clothe.

 

[Black Akuma]

Sounds like a good point but then we would be in a much worse state than we are now. There would be much more sin and misery.

So? Our time on Earth is a flicker in eternity, if that much. What is an infinitesimal time on Earth in comparison with an eternity of glory?

 

[EternalDragon]

So? Our time on Earth is a flicker in eternity, if that much. What is an infinitesimal time on Earth in comparison with an eternity of glory?

Perhaps you should direct your questions to God and the bible. He thought it was important enough to send a lot of messages and even become one of us to die on a cross. Seems earth and it's inhabitants are pretty important.

(Ideas in Doctor Who comes to mind but it's not a very good example.)

 

[Black Akuma]

Perhaps you should direct your questions to God and the bible.

You read the Bible and you claim to speak with God. If you can't get answer, what chance do I have?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm using the bible to reveal how we ought to use the bible. And that is, not sola scriptura. The bible doesn't make claims about being the only source of revelation and teaching, infact, it makes the opposite claim.

But It does tell us we should prioritize.

 

[KWCrazy]

Scripture doesn't teach how God created.

Not the process, other than say "God said let there be..." and there was. The time frame is very specific, using verbiage that could not possibly mean other than a solar day. Even though there wasn't a sun until day four, there was light from the first moments. Also, in Exodus 20:11 God Himself states a six day creation.

Also - I'm not an inerranist,

Jesus was. He taught from the Scriptures with authority and considered them to be the inerrant word of God.

Scripture teaches theology, not science.

Science is the study of the physical world. The Scriptures teach about the real world; not just the artificial temporary construct we live on now.

The evidence you listed above is a product of the type of literature you consider the bible to be. It is not scientific.

What is scientific? Science is not a synonym for truth. Scientific means only that it conforms with the known rules of physics. God is not bound by such rules, as He has repeatedly demonstrated.

It is predicated on you taking Scripture to make physical literal claims about the physical world, and you really ought to question why this is your framework of interpretation when it didn't seem to be the framework of interpretation shared by the ancients.

I'm not an "ancientian." I'm a Christian. I believe that the truth doesn't lie in the perceptions of man, but in the teachings of Christ. I understand that God could freeze the rotation of the earth for a day or even reverse it if He so chose without consequence. Science teaches us that man cannot calm the sea or walk on water. Jesus taught us that the creation serves the Creator, not vice versa.

I do believe in miracles, especially the incarnation and resurrection. But you have to differentiate between what is possible and what actually happened.

It depends on what you mean by possible. With God all things are possible, including a six day creation, a global flood and the creation of a mature planet with adult living things upon it. The 333 miracles in the Bible confirm that what can or cannot happen depends on the will of God, not the laws of physics. To be sure, in a world with constant monitoring by recordable media and the requirement to come to Him through faith such miracles are definitely rare, but they still happen and many Christians have experienced them. One thing science claims is impossible is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, something which you can give personal testimony is real.

I believe God could have created however He wanted, and hence a special creation a few thousand years ago would have been a possibility, but the evidence suggests He chose a different option

What evidence? I've yet to see ANYTHING in the Scriptures to allow for a 13.5 billion year Earth. I really don't care about the claims made by those who content that the earth must have somehow created itself. The world was not created scientifically, so science can never discover the truth.

The fact that He chose evolution over a faster more direct option speaks nothing of my belief in miracles or in His resurrection on the third day.

Please cite for me evidence in the Scriptures to support your conclusion.

You DO realize that everything we see in biology supporting evolution could also support the speciation of the animal kingdom after the flood, right? Each animal was supposed to go forth and multiply after its kind; not reproduce an exact replica of itself.

That's because Scripture is the wrong kind of evidence when examining scientific claims.

Scientific evidence is the wrong kind of evidence when examining supernatural claims, as well. Science cannot account for nor discount the supernatural.

The deception of creationists is massive. Care to see some evidence of quote mining?

I stopped after the first one. Let me cite it for you.

"It is, however, very difficult to establish the precise lines of descent, termed phylogenies, for most organisms. A direct method of tracing phylogenies has been to trace a series of fossils that resemble each other but show a sequence of changes leading through time from an ancestral to a descendant form. Relationships among the fossils are thus judged by their relative ages and their morphological resemblances and differences. This works well when abundant fossils are available in a continuous record, but unfortunately the fossil record is quite incomplete. Most animals have no easily fossilizable hard parts, and only a small fraction of animals with shells or bones are actually preserved as fossils. For most lineages we have to employ more indirect methods of phylogenetic reconstruction."

The bolded part is the quote. Does anything in that paragraph dispute that quote? No. In fact, the closing sentence buoys the opening sentence. So what is the "quote mining creationist" saying? Exactly what the cited author was saying; that direct lines of descent are very difficult to prove in most lineages and they have to use other methods. We could list some of the outright frauds committed by evolutionists, but I'm sure you know them well.

Evolution is unproven and unprovable because it is, in fact, false teaching. As others have said it will continue to make inroads, though, until fewer and fewer people believe the Scriptures. In time we will become so corrupt we will have "outgrown" the believe in God. All this will happen before the return of the Lord. It will get continuously harder for the believer to withstand the pressure of deceivers that the bible is, in fact, merely a book of mythology.

The truth is that we were created. We did not evolve. The Scriptures are very clear in that regard. There are no passages of Scripture which state otherwise. To accept evolution, you have to deny the Scriptures. To accept the Scriptures, you have to understand that science is only the study of the physical world and cannot include the intervention of God.

 

[Black Akuma]

Obviously then they would be guiltless.

God knows how many hairs are on each persons head. I am sure he knows what is in our hearts as well and if we would accept him if given the chance, in any alternate situation.

Also, these two paragraphs seem somewhat contradictory.

On one hand, you assert that people who haven't heard about God and Jesus are guiltless - which I assume means they aren't judged for a decision they never could have made.

But in the second, you say that God knows whether people would accept him or not, regardless of whether they actually make that decision. Which seems to imply that God can and does judge you for things you would do, not things you've actually done. Which opens up a whole can of worms.

 

[Black Akuma]

Evolution is unproven and unprovable because it is...

...a scientific theory, which are NEVER proven. Science does not deal in proof.

 

[Heissonear]

Then I suggest that you just ignore your friends when they show their ignorance.

In Christianity not understanding evolution could only be considered the mildest of sins. As long as they keep their ignorance to themselves they are relatively harmless.

When they try to force their views on others the science behind their beliefs fail so badly that they always lose in courts of law. They are still smarting from the Dover trial.

Ignorance, not understanding, mildest of sins, always lose in courts of law, still smarting, .........

Humm.

On every thread - flaming - arrogance, strife, denial, degrading others, try to dominate discussion and conclusions, proselyting others to Naturalism, .........

And you cannot prove this is not a Creation, what you are made of was not Created, cannot prove how life on earth originated, cannot show finely-graduated fossils to any other life form out of millions of fossils only gaps are clearly seen, lack awareness to the dynamics of the Spiritual realm in our midst, that's all!!!

And you think you do not walk and talk by faith as you flame and proselyte others?

I'm pointing at your foundation.

.

 

[Heissonear]

First of all, people here regularly use quotes from Charles Darwin, though he died in 1882. Does that prove that any Darwin quotes published anywhere after he died are fraudulent? Are we to believe that nobody ever cites a reference from a previous source? Should we immediately accuse people of lying if they use a source that happens to be erroneous?

Evolutionists misquote the Bible all the time because they don't understand it in context. Should I immediately call you a liar every time you mistranslate something? Should I call you a liar every time you cite a reference that has it wrong?

.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ignorance, not understanding, mildest of sins, always lose in courts of law, still smarting, .........

Humm.

On every thread - flaming - arrogance, strife, denial, degrading others, try to dominate discussion and conclusions, proselyting others to Naturalism, .........

And you cannot prove this is not a Creation, what you are made of was not Created, cannot prove how life on earth originated, cannot show finely-graduated fossils to any other life form out of millions of fossils only gaps are clearly seen, lack awareness to the dynamics of the Spiritual realm in our midst, that's all!!!

And you think you do not walk and talk by faith as you flame and proselyte others?

I'm pointing at your foundation.

.

There was no "flaming". There was no "arrogance". The ignorance of creationists is infamous. They constantly keep making errors in their understanding of evolution. You cannot debunk something that you do not understand.

And what arrogance? There was no gloating over the fact that evolution is correct.

Please, you need to learn how to use the words you use to attack people. In fact your misuse of those terms mean that you are the arrogant, flaming one.

If you look at that post I was simply giving advice. The person I was advising knew that evolution was obviously a fact. He has some poor benighted relatives and I was trying to help him find a way to deal with them.

 

[EternalDragon]

You read the Bible and you claim to speak with God. If you can't get answer, what chance do I have?

Oh, I have the answers. They are in God's word.

I am sorry that you are grasping with logic to try to figure out God. It is best just to go to Him and ask then start reading for yourself.

 

[Black Akuma]

Oh, I have the answers.

And you're not sharing them because...?

 

[EternalDragon]

And you're not sharing them because...?

Because I assume you have access to a bible. Why would you
believe what I say?

 

[Black Akuma]

Because I assume you have access to a bible. Why would you
believe what I say?

Does the phrase 'You're the only Bible some will ever read' mean anything to you?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

ThinkForYourself said:

Jesus made hell for the devil, you know, the one that attempted to take His throne from Him, after he "the devil" failed he came here looking for more followers to take with him to that fiery furnace.. if you go to that place its only because you choose to

No, if I go it will be because god wants to torture me for eternity.

Just be clear here is a message to God: Dear God, please don't send me to hell. Thanks.

There we go, I'm choosing not to go to Hell.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

You don't see it at all. Your error started from the first clause. I don't want to live a life only based on reality.

You don't have a clue.

Hmmm, that's interesting. I've never met anyone who wants to be delusional.

Could you tell me why you prefer to live a life outside of reality? What advantages do you gain by living in a make believe world?

 

[SayaOtonashi]

One tiny problem Yom doesn't always means days literal days. The grass were baby grass. There things didn't happen in 6 days

 

[SayaOtonashi]

The Hebrew word yom occurs over 2000 times in the Old Testament. In Genesis 1, the word yom is used in combination with Hebrew words ereb3 (the word for "evening") and boquer4 (the word for "morning"). The claim has been made that when yom is used with the words "evening" or "morning," it always refers to a 24-hour day:

"Outside Genesis 1, yom is used with the word ‘evening’ or ‘morning’ 23 times. ‘Evening’ and ‘morning’ appear in association, but without yom, 38 times. All 61 times the text refers to an ordinary day—why would Genesis 1 be the exception?"1
​

Actually, they don't even get their facts correct. There are 42 verses (not 23) outside Genesis 1 in which yom is used in combination with either "evening" or "morning" (or both).5 The Hebrew words for "evening" and "morning" are juxtaposed only 12 times outside Genesis 1.6 In seven of those verses, the word order is reversed from that found in Genesis 1.6 Most of these verses do refer to 24 hour days, since they discuss the sacrificial system. However, a verse from the Psalms does not refer to a 24-hour day:

They who dwell in the ends of the earth stand in awe of Your signs; You make the dawn [boqer] and the sunset [ereb] shout for joy. (Psalm 65:8)
​

Moses, the author of Genesis 1, also wrote Psalm 90.7 In this Psalm, Moses compares 1000 years to a single day or a watch in the night.8 In the next verse, he compares human lives to grass. He says that the grass sprouts in the morning and withers in the evening. Realistically, grasses live at least several days or weeks before dying. Evening and morning in this example do not refer to a 24-hour period of time:

You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning [boqer] they are like grass which sprouts anew. In the morning [boqer] it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening [ereb] it fades and withers away. (Psalm 90:5-6)
​

Later, in the same Psalm, Moses includes a plea that God satisfy us with His love in the morning (boqer) that we may sing all our days (a lifetime of days, again, is usually longer than 24 hours):

O satisfy us in the morning [boqer] with Your lovingkindness, That we may sing for joy and be glad all our days [yom]. (Psalm 90:14)
​

Another verse, from Daniel, refers to a period of prophecy:

He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings [ereb] and mornings [boqer]; then the holy place will be properly restored." (Daniel 8:14)
​

Some interpret the period of 2,300 evenings and mornings as 2,300 days, while other calculate it as 1,150 days (2,300 divided by 2).9 Still others interpret the 2,300 evenings and mornings as 2,300 years.10 It is not absolutely clear that the reference is to 24-hour days.
Outside Genesis 1, yom occurs only 4 times in combination with both Hebrew words for "evening" and "morning." The actual word order of "evening" followed by "morning" in combination with yom (as seen in Genesis 1) occurs only once outside Genesis 1. It is ironic that this one verse comes from Daniel 8:26, which defines yom as a period of time at least 3000 years long:

"The vision of the evenings [ereb] and mornings [boqer] Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days [yom] in the future." (Daniel 8:26)
​

Obviously, the claim that "All 61 times the text refers to an ordinary day-why would Genesis 1 be the exception" is false, just from this verse - the only verse that perfectly matches the usage found in Genesis 1.
"Evening" has the additional meaning of "ending" and "morning" has the meaning of "dawning" or "beginning".11 The order of "evening morning" is not insignificant. Each day described in Genesis 1 is completed by "evening" (ending) juxtaposed with "morning" (beginning). So, the usage fits the interpretation of the ending of one day and the beginning of the next.
Claim 2: Yom with a number (ordinal) always refers to 24 hour days

The claim has been made that when yom is used with a number, it always refers to a 24-hour day:

"Outside Genesis 1, yom is used with a number 410 times, and each time it means an ordinary day—why would Genesis 1 be the exception?"1
​

Let's look at some notable exceptions to this "rule," just using the first day as an example. The number used for "first day" is the Hebrew word echad,12 which means "one." The first exception to the "rule" is found in Genesis 29:20, where echad yom refers to a period of seven years that Jacob served Laban to obtain Rachel.13
In the book of 1 Samuel, David says that he "will perish one day [echad yom] by the hand of Saul."14 Obviously, David was not expecting to die in exactly 24 hours. In fact, David was never killed by Saul, but died of old age many decades later.
A prophecy from the book of Daniel describes the demise of the ruler of the Syrian kingdom, Seleucus Philopator, the Son of Antiochus the Great. According to Daniel 11:20, "within a few days [echad yom] he will be shattered."15 The reign of Seleucus actually lasted 12 years16 - a relatively short period of time, but certainly not 24 hours!
There are several examples where echad yom refers to the Day of the Lord - a period usually interpreted as being seven years in length.17 Specific examples that specify a period of time longer than 24 hours include the following:

'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day [echad yom]. 'In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'" (Zechariah 3:9-10)
For it will be a unique day [echad yom] which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. (Zechariah 14:7-8)
"He [the Lord] will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him. (Hosea 6:2)
​

If we are to interpret echad yom as referring only to a 24 hour day, then people will only be able to invite their neighbors over during one 24 hour period of time. Obviously, Zechariah 3:9-10 refers to an extended period of time. Later in his book, Zechariah describes this "one day" as being "in summer as well as in winter." This verse clearly indicates that this "one day" must be at least six months in length. The third example above is somewhat difficult to interpret, but is often interpreted as representing long periods of time. Gill's commentary says,"...these two and three days may be expressive of a long and short time, as interpreters differently explain them; of a long time, as the third day is a long time for a man to lie dead..."18 These six examples clearly establish that when yom is used with a number it does not always refer to 24-hour days.
Claim 3: Other biblical Hebrew words could have been used to designate long periods of time

The claim is made that other Hebrew words could have been used to represent long periods of time:

"There are words in biblical Hebrew (such as olam or qedem) that are very suitable for communicating long periods of time, or indefinite time, but none of these words are used in Genesis 1."1
​

Olam19 and qedem20 were not used in biblical Hebrew to represent long periods of time. Olam is almost always translated "eternity" "eternal" or "forever" in ancient Hebrew.21 Obviously, this would not be used to represent long periods of time. Qedem has the usual meaning of "east."22 Alternatively, it has the meaning of "old", "eternal" or "past." It is not used to represent a period of time in ancient Hebrew. It is interesting that not one example is given to substantiate the claim that either olam or qedem is used to represent a long period of time in biblical Hebrew.

 

[SayaOtonashi]

The Hebrew word yom occurs over 2000 times in the Old Testament. In Genesis 1, the word yom is used in combination with Hebrew words ereb3 (the word for "evening") and boquer4 (the word for "morning"). The claim has been made that when yom is used with the words "evening" or "morning," it always refers to a 24-hour day:

"Outside Genesis 1, yom is used with the word ‘evening’ or ‘morning’ 23 times. ‘Evening’ and ‘morning’ appear in association, but without yom, 38 times. All 61 times the text refers to an ordinary day—why would Genesis 1 be the exception?"1
​

Actually, they don't even get their facts correct. There are 42 verses (not 23) outside Genesis 1 in which yom is used in combination with either "evening" or "morning" (or both).5 The Hebrew words for "evening" and "morning" are juxtaposed only 12 times outside Genesis 1.6 In seven of those verses, the word order is reversed from that found in Genesis 1.6 Most of these verses do refer to 24 hour days, since they discuss the sacrificial system. However, a verse from the Psalms does not refer to a 24-hour day:

They who dwell in the ends of the earth stand in awe of Your signs; You make the dawn [boqer] and the sunset [ereb] shout for joy. (Psalm 65:8)
​

Moses, the author of Genesis 1, also wrote Psalm 90.7 In this Psalm, Moses compares 1000 years to a single day or a watch in the night.8 In the next verse, he compares human lives to grass. He says that the grass sprouts in the morning and withers in the evening. Realistically, grasses live at least several days or weeks before dying. Evening and morning in this example do not refer to a 24-hour period of time:

You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning [boqer] they are like grass which sprouts anew. In the morning [boqer] it flourishes and sprouts anew; Toward evening [ereb] it fades and withers away. (Psalm 90:5-6)
​

Later, in the same Psalm, Moses includes a plea that God satisfy us with His love in the morning (boqer) that we may sing all our days (a lifetime of days, again, is usually longer than 24 hours):

O satisfy us in the morning [boqer] with Your lovingkindness, That we may sing for joy and be glad all our days [yom]. (Psalm 90:14)
​

Another verse, from Daniel, refers to a period of prophecy:

He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings [ereb] and mornings [boqer]; then the holy place will be properly restored." (Daniel 8:14)
​

Some interpret the period of 2,300 evenings and mornings as 2,300 days, while other calculate it as 1,150 days (2,300 divided by 2).9 Still others interpret the 2,300 evenings and mornings as 2,300 years.10 It is not absolutely clear that the reference is to 24-hour days.
Outside Genesis 1, yom occurs only 4 times in combination with both Hebrew words for "evening" and "morning." The actual word order of "evening" followed by "morning" in combination with yom (as seen in Genesis 1) occurs only once outside Genesis 1. It is ironic that this one verse comes from Daniel 8:26, which defines yom as a period of time at least 3000 years long:

"The vision of the evenings [ereb] and mornings [boqer] Which has been told is true; But keep the vision secret, For it pertains to many days [yom] in the future." (Daniel 8:26)
​

Obviously, the claim that "All 61 times the text refers to an ordinary day-why would Genesis 1 be the exception" is false, just from this verse - the only verse that perfectly matches the usage found in Genesis 1.
"Evening" has the additional meaning of "ending" and "morning" has the meaning of "dawning" or "beginning".11 The order of "evening morning" is not insignificant. Each day described in Genesis 1 is completed by "evening" (ending) juxtaposed with "morning" (beginning). So, the usage fits the interpretation of the ending of one day and the beginning of the next.
Claim 2: Yom with a number (ordinal) always refers to 24 hour days

The claim has been made that when yom is used with a number, it always refers to a 24-hour day:

"Outside Genesis 1, yom is used with a number 410 times, and each time it means an ordinary day—why would Genesis 1 be the exception?"1
​

Let's look at some notable exceptions to this "rule," just using the first day as an example. The number used for "first day" is the Hebrew word echad,12 which means "one." The first exception to the "rule" is found in Genesis 29:20, where echad yom refers to a period of seven years that Jacob served Laban to obtain Rachel.13
In the book of 1 Samuel, David says that he "will perish one day [echad yom] by the hand of Saul."14 Obviously, David was not expecting to die in exactly 24 hours. In fact, David was never killed by Saul, but died of old age many decades later.
A prophecy from the book of Daniel describes the demise of the ruler of the Syrian kingdom, Seleucus Philopator, the Son of Antiochus the Great. According to Daniel 11:20, "within a few days [echad yom] he will be shattered."15 The reign of Seleucus actually lasted 12 years16 - a relatively short period of time, but certainly not 24 hours!
There are several examples where echad yom refers to the Day of the Lord - a period usually interpreted as being seven years in length.17 Specific examples that specify a period of time longer than 24 hours include the following:

'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day [echad yom]. 'In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'" (Zechariah 3:9-10)
For it will be a unique day [echad yom] which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. (Zechariah 14:7-8)
"He [the Lord] will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him. (Hosea 6:2)
​

If we are to interpret echad yom as referring only to a 24 hour day, then people will only be able to invite their neighbors over during one 24 hour period of time. Obviously, Zechariah 3:9-10 refers to an extended period of time. Later in his book, Zechariah describes this "one day" as being "in summer as well as in winter." This verse clearly indicates that this "one day" must be at least six months in length. The third example above is somewhat difficult to interpret, but is often interpreted as representing long periods of time. Gill's commentary says,"...these two and three days may be expressive of a long and short time, as interpreters differently explain them; of a long time, as the third day is a long time for a man to lie dead..."18 These six examples clearly establish that when yom is used with a number it does not always refer to 24-hour days.
Claim 3: Other biblical Hebrew words could have been used to designate long periods of time

The claim is made that other Hebrew words could have been used to represent long periods of time:

"There are words in biblical Hebrew (such as olam or qedem) that are very suitable for communicating long periods of time, or indefinite time, but none of these words are used in Genesis 1."1
​

Olam19 and qedem20 were not used in biblical Hebrew to represent long periods of time. Olam is almost always translated "eternity" "eternal" or "forever" in ancient Hebrew.21 Obviously, this would not be used to represent long periods of time. Qedem has the usual meaning of "east."22 Alternatively, it has the meaning of "old", "eternal" or "past." It is not used to represent a period of time in ancient Hebrew. It is interesting that not one example is given to substantiate the claim that either olam or qedem is used to represent a long period of time in biblical Hebrew.