The challenge for Theistic Evolutionists

[EternalDragon]

One tiny problem Yom doesn't always means days literal days. The grass were baby grass. There things didn't happen in 6 days

You can post all kinds of opinions, but sun up to sun down has always meant a 24 hour day, unless you want to redefine our days somehow.

 

[Sayre]

You can post all kinds of opinions, but sun up to sun down has always meant a 24 hour day, unless you want to redefine our days somehow.

Right. I always thought the yom debate was a bit of a red herring. It is clear that in the creation stories, the days are 24 hours. No use trying to redefine them as long epocs of time. However, it is just a story... intended to be read as a story, and not literal, so in the end, the distinction doesn't matter.

 

[Assyrian]

You can post all kinds of opinions, but sun up to sun down has always meant a 24 hour day, unless you want to redefine our days somehow.

SayaOtonashi has gone through three posts showing you how language is used in the bible. You need to deal with what she says rather than just dismiss it off hand.

 

[theFijian]

How do you know that the Bible isn't one of Satan's lies... and you''ve bought the lie?

How do you know what you think is the Holy Spirit isn't one of Satan's lies?

 

[AV1611VET]

Right. I always thought the yom debate was a bit of a red herring. It is clear that in the creation stories, the days are 24 hours. No use trying to redefine them as long epocs of time. However, it is just a story... intended to be read as a story, and not literal, so in the end, the distinction doesn't matter.

Indeed.

Making them longer than 24 hours just makes it harder on them, as now they would have to explain how angiosperms ... created before the sun ... thrived on the earth for "epochs."

 

[AV1611VET]

Even though for three days there was no sun up or sun down to give you 24 hours a day, strange that.

Why is that strange?

You don't need the sun.

All you need is the earth rotating.

 

[Sayre]

How do you know what you think is the Holy Spirit isn't one of Satan's lies?

I'd love to have a real discussion about this. New thread? I'll give you the link.

The short answer is that I believe in reformed epistemology and the self authenticating witness of the Holy Spirit. I notice you are a calvinist so perhaps we agree on this topic. But I certainly didn't need the bible to recognise the Holy Spirit (and I don't think the bible teaches that).

 

[Assyrian]

Why is that strange?

You don't need the sun.

All you need is the earth rotating.

The earth rotating wouldn't make it day without the sun.

 

[AV1611VET]

The earth rotating wouldn't make it day without the sun.

Why?

And let's make this harder on your computer models:

Suppose God created a stopwatch and the [rotating] earth ... nothing else.

Question:

After the stopwatch runs 24 hours, has one day gone by on the earth?

(And assuming I'm going to get an honest answer from you, my next question is going to be even harder.)

 

[Assyrian]

Why?

The biblical mean of a day was the period from sunset to sunset

And let's make this harder on your computer models:

We are talking about what day means in the bible, not computer models

Suppose God created a stopwatch and the [rotating] earth ... nothing else.

Question:

After the stopwatch runs 24 hours, has one day gone by on the earth?

(And assuming I'm going to get an honest answer from you, my next question is going to be even harder.)

You are confusing the meaning of day in the bible with a modern definition of day as 24 hours which requires a clock to exist to have any meaning. The fact we also talk of days on other planets being different lengths of time shows the real meaning of day is still understood in relation to the sun. You would also find your anachronistic stopwatch does not match the rotation of the earth. After 24 hours on your stopwatch, the earth would have rotated 1.00583 times, because the real earth is also orbiting the sun. As Phineas Fogg discovered, you gain an extra day doing a full circuit. Literal biblical days need the sun.

 

[AV1611VET]

The biblical mean of a day was the period from sunset to sunset

Okay.

We are talking about what day means in the bible, not computer models

And "day" is mentioned in the Bible, before the sun even exists.

So are we on the same page as far as a day not needing the sun?

You are confusing the meaning of day in the bible ...

Now you're going to invoke the entire Bible?

I thought we were discussing wheter a day can exist prior to Genesis 1:14?

... with a modern definition of day as 24 hours which requires ...

Same as in Genesis 1.

... which requires a clock to exist to have any meaning.

God is the clock.

The fact we also talk of days on other planets being different lengths of time shows the real meaning of day is still understood in relation to the sun.

We're not discussing what we call a day on other planets though, are we?

We're discussing Day One, Day Two, and Day Three of the Creation Week.

Nothing beyond that.

Right?

Or are you trying to confuse this conversation by weaving around all throughout the Bible and the solar system?

You would also find your anachronistic stopwatch does not match the rotation of the earth. After 24 hours on your stopwatch, the earth would have rotated 1.00583 times, because the real earth is also orbiting the sun.

Good ... then this is the place to ask you my even harder question:

Suppose the earth isn't even rotating?

Could a day transpire?

As Phineas Fogg discovered, you gain an extra day doing a full circuit.

Good for him.

Literal biblical days need the sun.

No they do not.

Are you suggesting the earth won't get a day older until the sun arrives?

 

[Assyrian]

Okay.

And "day" is mentioned in the Bible, before the sun even exists.

Which is evidence it isn't talking literally.

So are we on the same page as far as a day not needing the sun?

No, I said the opposite.

Now you're going to invoke the entire Bible?

I thought we were discussing wheter a day can exist prior to Genesis 1:14?

I am talking about what the word meant to the people in biblical times that it was written for.

Same as in Genesis 1.

Gensis 1 doesn't say anything about days being 14 hours long,

God is the clock.

We invented the hours, minutes and seconds your stopwatch uses. In fact we invented the concept of an hour being a fixed measure of time rather than 1/12 of the time from sunrise to sunset which is longer in the winter than summer.

We're not discussing what we call a day on other planets though, are we?

We are looking at what what day means, you want to use the modern meaning of the term instead of what the biblical term meant. I'm telling you what the modern word means.

We're discussing Day One, Day Two, and Day Three of the Creation Week.

Nothing beyond that.

Right?

Or are you trying to confuse this conversation by weaving around all throughout the Bible and the solar system?

You can't just look at days one, two and three in isolation because they were written in OT times in language people from those times understood. You want to read it from a 21st century perspective picking and choosing which 21st century concepts you want to use. I am happy to ignore modern astronomy if you leave your stopwatch and modern horology.

Good ... then this is the place to ask you my even harder question:

Suppose the earth isn't even rotating?

Could a day transpire?

Sure as long as the sun crosses the sky to the place it sets every day (Joshua 10:13 and Psalm 19:5-6) and hurries at night to the place it rises Eccl 1:5.

Good for him.

So you just ignore the role the earth's orbit around the sun plays in the length of our 24 hour day?

No they do not.

Are you suggesting the earth won't get a day older until the sun arrives?

Non literal descriptions of time do not involve literal ageing.

 

[Aman777]

The biblical mean of a day was the period from sunset to sunset

We are talking about what day means in the bible, not computer models

You are confusing the meaning of day in the bible with a modern definition of day as 24 hours which requires a clock to exist to have any meaning. The fact we also talk of days on other planets being different lengths of time shows the real meaning of day is still understood in relation to the sun. You would also find your anachronistic stopwatch does not match the rotation of the earth. After 24 hours on your stopwatch, the earth would have rotated 1.00583 times, because the real earth is also orbiting the sun. As Phineas Fogg discovered, you gain an extra day doing a full circuit. Literal biblical days need the sun.

Dear Assyrian, Not so. You are confusing the the meaning of the word Yowm, which in Hebrew, means a period of time, or a day. This is because the word yowm is used as the word day to show 12 hours, 24 hours, a lifetime, and forever. ie. The 7th Day (Yowm) is Eternity, since it has NO evening, and no end. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

 

[AV1611VET]

Okay, Assyrian.

Thank you for your input.

 

[EternalDragon]

Right. I always thought the yom debate was a bit of a red herring. It is clear that in the creation stories, the days are 24 hours. No use trying to redefine them as long epocs of time. However, it is just a story... intended to be read as a story, and not literal, so in the end, the distinction doesn't matter.

Genesis contains a full genealogy back to Adam. It was always considered literal history by the Jews. It was considered literal history by other writers of the bible and even Jesus himself. It is written in literal Hebrew style.

Nothing at all indicates it was "just a story".

Assyrian, the Hebrew usage of YOM which includes a sun up and sun down, (God was the light on those first few days) always means 24 hours. There is really nothing else to refute about it.

 

[Black Akuma]

It was always considered literal history by the Jews.

This is patently untrue.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Genesis contains a full genealogy back to Adam.

Not until Genesis 5. Ever notice how Gen. 5 has all the hallmarks of an introductory chapter, and Genesis 1-4 has no connection at all to the rest of the book beyond that point?

Almost as if they were tacked on at some later point...

It was always considered literal history by the Jews.

Source, please?

It was considered literal history by other writers of the bible and even Jesus himself. It is written in literal Hebrew style.

Source, please?

Nothing at all indicates it was "just a story".

Certainly your insistence would indicate it was more, but without sources, what's that worth?

Assyrian, the Hebrew usage of YOM which includes a sun up and sun down, (God was the light on those first few days) always means 24 hours. There is really nothing else to refute about it.

Indeed -- nothing to refute if all we're going on is your own say-so.

 

[KWCrazy]

The earth rotating wouldn't make it day without the sun.

Wrong.

The earth rotating wouldn't make it day without a source of light. Remember, Light was created in the beginning. An earth in rotation would have day and night regardless of what the light source was called. It doesn't matter that there was no sun, there was a source of light which caused the evening andf the morning to be the first day.

 

[Assyrian]

Assyrian, the Hebrew usage of YOM which includes a sun up and sun down, (God was the light on those first few days) always means 24 hours. There is really nothing else to refute about it.

You certainly didn't have any sun up or sun down on the first three days before there was a sun. That is why you had people in the early church who thought it meant the days were literal. Where does it say God was the light on the first days? God said let there be light, not let me be light. You have a clearly non literal day in Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Wrong.

The earth rotating wouldn't make it day without a source of light. Remember, Light was created in the beginning. An earth in rotation would have day and night regardless of what the light source was called. It doesn't matter that there was no sun, there was a source of light which caused the evening andf the morning to be the first day.

Ah yes, a light source. For visible light. Before matter. Hmm.