The Catholic Chruch is not the Anti-Christ

[kepha31]

The point to this thread, is that even though the Church is human and imperfect, and does things that the rest of Christianity shakes it's head at, it is not the antichrist. The antichrist is mankind. No matter how holy you convince yourself you are, you are as far as the heavens are to the earth from Gods holiness.

The men who were around the beginning of the Christian church's beginning, were imperfect. And to quote them in rationalizing sinful actions, do not make the wrong actions right. This is a rationalization of worshiping the created, not the creator, at the same time saying it is not doing the very same thing, pertaining to the same "shrine" at Fatima-


"Saint Jerome declared, “We do not worship, we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore Him whose martyrs they are” (Ad Riparium,i,P.L., XXII, 907).

Father Luis Kondor*, Postulator for the Cause of the Beautification of Francisco and Jacinta Marto and Lucia Dos Santos presented a 1st class relic in November 2005 at his residence in Fatima, Portugal to Mrs. Judy Studer. She graciously accepted these sacred items of a piece of the holm-oak tree on which Our Blessed Mother appeared in Fatima and relics of Jacinta and Francesco. These sacred remains are encased in a small gold reliquary.

Father Kondor requested that this gift relic travel with the United Nations Pilgrim Virgin Statue. In a final request, Father Kondor asked that Ms. Studer use the reliquary to bring hope and healing to all sick people and especially to share the story of Fatima with children.

Father Kondor (d. November 2009)

The word relic comes from the reliquiae, meaning “remains.” A reliquary is a shrine that houses one or more relics."

See? One more time in case you missed it-"bring hope and healing to all sick people "

A piece of a tree is not something to "venerate" "worship" or expect healing from. Only God has power. And no matter how you explain this, it is idolatry by definition. No matter who you quote. Peace

Contrary to the incoherent babblings of psychotic anti-Catholics, relics and statues are not the source of healing and/or grace. Only God has power.

Reformation Wall"
Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox​

TAKEN FROM FACEBOOK
A certain extreme faction of Reformed Protestants are iconoclasts. In an earlier article (2-22-10) our illustrious polemicist disagreed with the proposition that "the rejection of icons of Christ is a defect in Christology" and agreed with the notion that "icons inherently involve an implicit Nestorianism (or perhaps Monophysitism)."

Since TAO is so concerned about idolatry and statues, perhaps he should also expose the serious idolatry (i.e., consistently applying his own opinions) of his friend and idol, Bishop James White, who proudly displayed ("Reformation Wall" -- 6-19-07) a photograph of idols (?) Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox (so-called "reformers" all) from Geneva.

"Turretinfan" Calls a Statue of Our Lord Jesus an "Idol" While His Buddy Bishop James White Praises the Statues of Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox
6-8-10)
I'm not kidding folks, TAO (always affectionately known in these quarters as "The Anonymous One") actually did this. Reporting on a story about a statue of Christ being struck by lightning and collapsing, he put up a post entitled "Gideon Would be Pleased . . . " that is (he continues in his post), "... by this report of God's destruction of an idol." He classifies this under the blog category of "Idolatry."

Bishop White (no iconoclast he!) adoringly commented on the idols thusly:

". . . the famed "Reformation Wall" . . . I've seen it many times, . . . I haven't gotten around to posting my pics from Edinburgh and Knox's house, so this will have to do for now! For those who do not recognize the great Reformers by face, from left to right we have Guilluame Farel, the fiery Reformer of Geneva who struck fear in Calvin's heart; then John Calvin himself; next to him Theodore Beza, Calvin's successor at Geneva, and finally the fiery John Knox, reformer of Scotland, . . ."

That's fine and dandy, but a statue of our Lord Jesus Christ?! Now, that is clearly a transgression of God's laws, so that God has to strike it down in judgment. The idols of Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox are preserved by God because they are, you see, good Protestant idols (just like the little statues of Mary in the manger every Christmas in millions of Protestant homes!). Statues of our Lord and Savior and Redeemer and God the Son, Jesus Christ, on the other hand, are evil, pagan "Catholic" idols (even though the one struck down was at a Protestant church).

Ironically, one of the sculptors of the "Reformation Wall" in Geneva (built in 1909) was Paul Landowski (1875-1961): a Frenchman of Polish descent, who also collaborated in designing the famous 1931 Christ the Redeemer statue in Rio de Janeiro: one of the New Seven Wonders of the World. The other sculptor was Frenchman Henri Bouchard (1875-1960).

Yet some of the anti-Catholics would have us believe that the statue of Christ is an evil idol, while the statues of Calvin, Farel, Beza, and Knox (made in part by the same sculptor) are glorious wonderworks of Protestant devotion and most fitting for the purpose of thankful appreciation for the Protestant Revolution.

 

[mikeangel]

A certain extreme faction of Reformed Protestants are iconoclasts. In an earlier article (2-22-10) our illustrious polemicist disagreed with the proposition that "the rejection of icons of Christ is a defect in Christology" and agreed with the notion that "icons inherently involve an implicit Nestorianism (or perhaps Monophysitism)."

Dude. Or Dudette. Fly on the wall observation and fact. When folks travel hundreds of miles to touch an object for possible healing/miracles or touch/kiss and icon for blessings-That is idolatry. Period. Quote whoever with mile long words or whatever-there are lots of Catholics who do this. I quoted that from the website of the traveling relics from Fatima happening right now . Stop them or admit it. They idolize dead bones and a piece of a tree for healing. Peace

 

[mikeangel]

"Father Kondor requested that this gift relic travel with the United Nations Pilgrim Virgin Statue. In a final request, Father Kondor asked that Ms. Studer use the reliquary to bring hope and healing to all sick people"........................?

 

[mikeangel]

No matter who you say or think are "psychotic anti-Catholics", the truth is the truth imho. Peace

 

[mikeangel]

Only God has power.

Amen

 

[kepha31]

There is a difference between veneration and idolatry. To you, they are one and the same.

2 Kings 13:20-21 [RSV]: So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. 21 And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet.

...Thomas Howard, also an Anglican on the verge of conversion to Catholicism at the time he wrote the following, picked up the same theme of the unbiblical Protestant tendency to pit matter against spirit:

"By avoiding the dangers of magic and idolatry on the one hand, evangelicalism runs itself very near the shoals of Manichaeanism on the other – the view, that is, that pits the spiritual against the physical. "(Evangelical is Not Enough, 35)

Catholic apologist Bertrand Conway elaborates:

The Catholic Church does not teach that there is any magical virtue or any curative efficacy in the relic itself. The Church merely says, following the Scriptures, that they are often the occasion of God’s miracles. In the Old Law we read of the veneration of the Jews for the bones of Joseph (Exodus 13:19; Joshua 24:32), and of the prophet Eliseus which raised a dead man to life (2 Kings 13:21) . . . (The Question Box, 373)

...veneration is essentially different from worship or adoration (reserved for God alone); it is a high honor given to something or someone because of the grace revealed or demonstrated in them from God. The relic (and the saint from whom it is derived) reflects the greatness of God just as a masterpiece of art or music reflects the greatness of the artist or composer.

Therefore, in venerating it, God is being honored. The saint is being venerated only insofar as he or she is reflecting God’s grace and holiness. If such an item is worshiped, the person doing it is not following Catholic teaching, which fully agrees with Protestantism with regard to the evil of idolatry, or putting something besides God in the unique place of God.

Exodus 20:4,
Context makes it very clear that idolatry is being condemned. The next verse states: “You shall not bow down to them or worship them” (NIV, NRSV).

In other words, mere blocks of stone or wood (“them”) are not to be worshiped, as that is gross idolatry, and the inanimate objects are not God. This does not absolutely preclude, however, the notion of an icon, where God is worshiped with the help of a visual aid.

Idolatry is a matter of disobedience in the heart towards the one true God. We don’t always need an image to have an idol. Most idols today are non-visual: money, sex, lust for power, convenience, our own pride or intellects; there are all sorts of idols. Anything that replaces God as the most important thing in our life and the universe, is an idol.

Idolatry is also a “heart issue.” It’s all about what is going on interiorly, just as lust is. One can lust without having a person of the opposite sex right in their vision. The heart is always key in Christianity. Catholics and Orthodox worship Jesus through images (including crosses, crucifixes, and statues of Jesus), and we venerate saints via images.

The frequent Protestant objection and opposition to veneration of images or of relics (as in this case) is as silly as saying that a person raising their hands towards God in worship and praise during church is worshiping the ceiling. That person may not have an image of God in their mind, but they use the symbolism of “upwards” as being directed towards God (yet God is everywhere, so they could just as correctly stretch their arms downward or sideways).

We are physical creatures; God became man, and so by the principle of the Incarnation and sacramentalism, the physical becomes involved in the spiritual. Icons and relics are both based on these presuppositions.
2 Kings 2:11-14
Acts 5:15-16
Acts 19:11-12

Elisha’s bones were a “first-class” relic: from the person himself or herself. These passages, on the other hand, offer examples of “second-class” relics: items that have power because they were connected with a holy person (Elijah’s mantle and even St. Peter’s shadow), and third-class relics: something that has merely touched a holy person or first-class relic (handkerchiefs that had touched St. Paul).

Surveying a few examples of Protestant commentary on these verses, we find again that no real substantive objection is raised, so that, therefore, the Catholic basis for relics, grounded in these passages, stands unrefuted.
Biblical Evidence and Reasoned Arguments for Relics

 

[kepha31]

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

 

[kepha31]

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[mikeangel]

In other words, mere blocks of stone or wood (“them”) are not to be worshiped, as that is gross idolatry, and the inanimate objects are not God. This does not absolutely preclude, however, the notion of an icon, where God is worshiped with the help of a visual aid.

Idolatry is a matter of disobedience in the heart towards the one true God. We don’t always need an image to have an idol. Most idols today are non-visual: money, sex, lust for power, convenience, our own pride or intellects; there are all sorts of idols. Anything that replaces God as the most important thing in our life and the universe, is an idol.

I was Catholic my entire life. A member of the K of C 3rd degree for 25 yrs of it. My family on my dads side was all Catholic. So I have the plank out of my eye to write this.

After My dad died, I read the entire Bible, cover to cover. And prayed all the while to God that HE revealed himself to me and guided me. Because the Church proved itsself very questionable to me in some areas.

I believe the devil has thrown every deception and excuse he has at the RCC. And it has all been to take the focus off of Jesus. So many things professed without scripture.

I have went mostly into social ministry. Homeless and nursing homes mostly. And God has presented himself in my life like a fire in a cave of darkness. I dont have faith that God exist, I know he does.

If you dont have a problem with people touching objects for miracles and blessings, because of a few lines in the bible, and long explanations, That is between you and God.

I know someone who wont allow their kids to go to public schools, for them being corrupted, and are fundamentalist Christians, but sell Harry Potter jewelry they make. Also the aformentioned Santa Clause, Astrology, etc. Point blank wrong to me.

BUT-Jesus said it would be this way in the end. And all who trust him and try to follow and obey him are forgiven. There is no one righteous, not even one .

But like I said before, IMHO, the RCC is human and imperfect, but forgiven. It wants to claim to be the head, but it is the tail IMHO, Just like the Jews in Jesus' time. It claims to be holy. Well, its leaders will be judged accordingly, like the Jews will be judged by mosaic law.

No matter what I say, I will never convince you or make you consider the question of folks touching things for favors or miracles and blessings, I do believe you do not from what you have written.

But one day, God will empower prophets, and they will prophesy, and prove them by fulfilling what they say. And announce his assuming power over the world once again. And the mainstream religions leaders and televangelist, are in for a few surprises, on this and many other subjects.

We will agree to disagree, and wait and see what God says. Peace and Love to you and yours. Me

 

[Phil 1:21]

Relics? I'd almost forgotten about that practice of chopping up dead bodies so churches can kiss little pieces of bone and stuff. Even as an altar boy, I thought our church having a piece of bone from some saint was creepy as heck. A little too Ed Gein-ish for me.

 

[Reformed2]

It is debatable what/ who is the antichrist. According to 1 John 2, it's not just a single individual; it's literally anyone who denies the Son. Catholics do not fit that description.

I can find plenty of faults with Catholicism, but I will not express them here because it would be hurtful and unedifying to many here. But no they're not the antichrist.

 

[Albion]

It is debatable what/ who is the antichrist. According to 1 John 2, it's not just a single individual; it's literally anyone who denies the Son. Catholics do not fit that description.

1 John 4:1-3 says, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this, you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming and is now already in the world."

 

[Reformed2]

1 John 4:1-3 says, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this, you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming and is now already in the world."

1 John 2:22 is the verse I was referring to but yes chapter 4 describes it in further detail ☺

 

[Albion]

I wasn't making an issue over which verse to turn to so much as showing that the meaning is that the anti-Christ is not a general type of person. The term really refers to a specific being. The Bible also refers to people as having the spirit of the anti-Christ (as in 1 John 4:3), meaning that a comparison is being made to the anti-Christ.

 

[Reformed2]

I wasn't making an issue over which verse to turn to so much as showing that the meaning is that the anti-Christ is not a general type of person. The term really refers to a specific being. The Bible also refers to people as having the spirit of the anti-Christ (as in 1 John 4:3), meaning that a comparison is being made to the anti-Christ.

Yes Im aware and agree, which is why I said what I said. We are not in any type of theological disagreement.

 

[mikeangel]

This is what I hear at NFL and NBA games. IMHO the modern day spirit of the anti-christ-

"Wont take no prisoners, wont spare no lives, no bodys puttin up a fight, we got the power gonna take you to hell, we're gonna get ya, Satan get ya, Hells Bells"

Also-"If goods on the left, then I'm stickin to the right"

and-"If your into Evil, your a friend of mine"

AC/DC Hells Bells. And during time outs and other breaks during games, they play this, and no one complains or stops to think of what this really is saying. Including me at one time. Just sayin......And this only one song. I havent even started into Ozzy, Jim Morrison, the Beatles etc..........

Music is alot more powerful than most people realize. It can cause revolutions like RnR did

 

[kepha31]

I was Catholic my entire life. A member of the K of C 3rd degree for 25 yrs of it. My family on my dads side was all Catholic. So I have the plank out of my eye to write this.

After My dad died, I read the entire Bible, cover to cover. And prayed all the while to God that HE revealed himself to me and guided me. Because the Church proved itsself very questionable to me in some areas.

I believe the devil has thrown every deception and excuse he has at the RCC. And it has all been to take the focus off of Jesus. So many things professed without scripture.

Everything professed can be found in scripture, either directly or indirectly. But there is nothing in scripture that says every practice, devotion or doctrine must be explicitly found in scripture. That is a man made tradition.
2087 Our moral life has its source in faith in God who reveals his love to us. St. Paul speaks of the "obedience of faith"9 as our first obligation. He shows that "ignorance of God" is the principle and explanation of all moral deviations.10 Our duty toward God is to believe in him and to bear witness to him.

CCC 2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it...

 

[mikeangel]

Ill see you and all the dead bones and relics statues and the vast library of Artwork from the Vatican, which includes a gold Guilded statue from Rome of Hercules, at the Gate and see what God says. Moses grounded down the bull diety. The church leaves an idol on display. You have fun with all what men have come up with. I fear only God. I find the freedom Jesus promised me in that. Peace

 

[Phil 1:21]

I havent even started into Ozzy, Jim Morrison, the Beatles etc..........

Not to get sidelined... Ozzy wrote some pretty dark stuff at times, but a lot of socially conscious music as well (Suicide Solution, Miracle Man, War Pigs etc.). Jim Morrison...no argument from me there. But as someone who has the entire Beatles collection, you lost me on that one. There was the occasional garbage like Maxwell Silver Hammer, Why Don't We Do It In The Road, and Polythene Pam, but I think their music was overall more positive than harmful.

 

[mikeangel]

Aliester Crowley was idealized by Lennon, who was a horrible person, and influenced the entire world. As he once said, Before Elvis, there was nothing. And they sealed the grip on society. He said his son was a product of a bottle of whiskey and a Saturday night. At the end of "War Pigs" Satan laughs and spreads his wings. No. Anyway, like you said, staying on track-Elvis and the Beatles and R n R is much more likely to be the antichrist than the RCC. Peace