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The Case For A Creator

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Jepas

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I just finished watching a documentary about the origin of species. It explains, using scientific fact, how in the 21st century more and more findings have been made that have pointed towards a creator or God rather than the theories used in the past such as Darwinism and evolution. Many of the scientists who have made the discoveries were atheistic before they started researching and discovering these things. And after all the evidence was there in front of them they couldn't help but acknowledge a creator. Many graduates of science, philosophy and other fields along those lines have signed a document stating that due to undeniable facts, they want to depart from the theory of Darwinism. I thought it was pretty interesting, and I don't care for science at all. It explains issues over several criteria of scientific study, if you can find it check it out, it's pretty interesting. Just thought I'd share. :)
 

Late_Cretaceous

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I just finished watching a documentary about the origin of species. It explains, using scientific fact, how in the 21st century more and more findings have been made that have pointed towards a creator or God rather than the theories used in the past such as Darwinism and evolution.

Most people, like myself, who believe in God do not require any scientific evidence for His existance. We just believe. The other side of the same coin, of course it that no scientific disovery can disprove God either.

Science seeks only to explain phenomenon in the universe, it is NOT intended nor suited for proving/disproving the existance of God.

Can you name one scientific theory that proves God, or requires God? Can you name one that attempts to disprove God (you insinuate that evolutionary theory does this, please demonstrate how).

Many of the scientists who have made the discoveries were atheistic before they started researching and discovering these things.

For example?
And after all the evidence was there in front of them they couldn't help but acknowledge a creator. Many graduates of science, philosophy and other fields along those lines have signed a document stating that due to undeniable facts, they want to depart from the theory of Darwinism.

I guess I will just have to take your word for that.
I thought it was pretty interesting, and I don't care for science at all.

Your distain if evident. Yet, you still manage to overcome your revulsion of science and sit yourself in front of a computer to broadcast your ideas over the internet.

It explains issues over several criteria of scientific study, if you can find it check it out, it's pretty interesting. Just thought I'd share. :)

Go ahead and share, we are waiting.
 
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PETE_

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I just finished watching a documentary about the origin of species. It explains, using scientific fact, how in the 21st century more and more findings have been made that have pointed towards a creator or God rather than the theories used in the past such as Darwinism and evolution. Many of the scientists who have made the discoveries were atheistic before they started researching and discovering these things. And after all the evidence was there in front of them they couldn't help but acknowledge a creator. Many graduates of science, philosophy and other fields along those lines have signed a document stating that due to undeniable facts, they want to depart from the theory of Darwinism. I thought it was pretty interesting, and I don't care for science at all. It explains issues over several criteria of scientific study, if you can find it check it out, it's pretty interesting. Just thought I'd share. :)
where did you see it? I have read some pretty interesting stuff but have not seen anything like that on tv.
 
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Jepas

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where did you see it? I have read some pretty interesting stuff but have not seen anything like that on tv.
My dad's friend gave it to him and told him it was worth a watch. It is a book as well.

For the other posts wanting examples, here's a site overviewing some of the material from the video, it's not too long and it's easier for a lazy person like myself to just give you the link rather than type.

http://www.family.org/faith/A000000725.cfm
 
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PETE_

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My dad's friend gave it to him and told him it was worth a watch. It is a book as well.

For the other posts wanting examples, here's a site overviewing some of the material from the video, it's not too long and it's easier for a lazy person like myself to just give you the link rather than type.

http://www.family.org/faith/A000000725.cfm
I have read Strobel's book. Is it based from that?
 
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busterdog

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I just finished watching a documentary about the origin of species. It explains, using scientific fact, how in the 21st century more and more findings have been made that have pointed towards a creator or God rather than the theories used in the past such as Darwinism and evolution. Many of the scientists who have made the discoveries were atheistic before they started researching and discovering these things. And after all the evidence was there in front of them they couldn't help but acknowledge a creator. Many graduates of science, philosophy and other fields along those lines have signed a document stating that due to undeniable facts, they want to depart from the theory of Darwinism. I thought it was pretty interesting, and I don't care for science at all. It explains issues over several criteria of scientific study, if you can find it check it out, it's pretty interesting. Just thought I'd share. :)

Yes it is interesting stuff. Not all of it exactly right, but many of them are on the right track.

Science is a mess in many ways. Lots of victories, but lots of conflicting ideas and big holes in important areas.

Don't sweat the scoffers who think fellowship starts with being snide.

The "criteria" for study are interesting and no, science eschews its own standards, especially where creationists are concerned.

Biblical knowledge is every bit as valid (and then some) in its description of how things were and are. Don't let them tell you any different.
 
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chaoschristian

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Strobel's work in 'The Case for a Creator' is flawed to say the least. Care to discuss any points in particular?

I just finished watching a documentary about the origin of species. It explains, using scientific fact, how in the 21st century more and more findings have been made that have pointed towards a creator or God rather than the theories used in the past such as Darwinism and evolution. Many of the scientists who have made the discoveries were atheistic before they started researching and discovering these things. And after all the evidence was there in front of them they couldn't help but acknowledge a creator. Many graduates of science, philosophy and other fields along those lines have signed a document stating that due to undeniable facts, they want to depart from the theory of Darwinism. I thought it was pretty interesting, and I don't care for science at all. It explains issues over several criteria of scientific study, if you can find it check it out, it's pretty interesting. Just thought I'd share. :)
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Biblical knowledge is every bit as valid (and then some) in its description of how things were and are. Don't let them tell you any different.


this is at the root of the hermeneutical problem.

interestingly i believe that a skeptic and unbeliever sees the issues better than many Christians.

Scientific findings...ought to be judged on their own merits, regardless of the ethical connotations some people might see in them. Ethical choices, OTOH-while they should certainly be informed by the best science available-are too important to be left only in the hands of scientists. ... This confusion between the purposes of science and religion is of course based on the fundamentalists' misunderstanding of their sacred scriptures as not only books on how to live, but also descriptions of how the universe works. By the same token, the, scientific discoveries must describe not only how the world is, but how it should be. This is perhaps the single most tragic mistake repeatedly made by both sides of the debate, though much more often by the religious side than the scientific side. pg 25
from: Denying Evolution: Creationism, Scientism, and the Nature of Science
by Massimo Pigliucci

God is not directly writing Scripture to us. He is writing it to those first readers of it, using their humanity to accommodate Himself to their frailities, their culture and to their history. The issue is if God is teaching that description He is using to communicate as a transcultural, forever true in all places and to all people. The BIG problem with thinking that everything in the Scriptures is equally authoritative as in being taught as binding on all believers is that we already make this distinction between moral, ceremonial and civil uses of the Law for exactly these reasons, God is not teaching that the Law is binding on believers in the exact same way as it was on Moses' flock, to whom the books were first written.

Why not? why do we make this distinction, not only between the types of the law(moral ceremonial civil) but between the 3 uses of the Law as well?

Because we are uniquely aware that people have misused the Law to drive the church into legalism over the centuries. What essentially legalism is, is that process of taking the Law as being taught not just to the Jews but to all subsequent believers.

This is the analogous problem to taking the form of the ideas, the structure of thought, the very cultural and societal and historical particulars that God is using to communicate to us as binding on us in the same way that they formed the structure of early Jewish thought.

Genesis presents a very specific cultural and historical model of the universe.
solid firmament, very young earth, flat, the sun revolves around it, hell below your feet, heaven where God is above your head.

this are as specifically Hebraic as the command not to boil a kid in it's mothers milk or any other of the specifically cultural context of the Law.

Can we learn from it? is it inspired and authoritative and from God? of course, just not as binding our conscienceness so that we can not look at the universe and see what God has told us there about how the universe really is and how it really was formed by His hands. These are great metaphors and paradigms for thinking, but they are not modern scientific descriptions of reality, they are ancient modes of thought that are not being taught but being used.
 
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busterdog

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Strobel's work in 'The Case for a Creator' is flawed to say the least. Care to discuss any points in particular?

I appreciate your conciliatory approach.

But, what happens is that one side will start hammering Strobel and concedes nothing. That is most uninteresting. Strobel does have good points.

Remember what Lincoln said to the band on the day they celebrated the surrender of the South: "Play Dixie."

Actually, I would like to hear what TE has to say about Strobel's good points. Not just his character and his intentions, but his science. Common sense says there are lots of valid scientific points. That would mean a real discussion is possible.
 
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Brennan

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Not too long ago scientists like Darwin were honest Believers who started with the premise that the world was 6000 years old and steadily found that the evidence they were uncovering forced them to reject a literalist viewpoint in favour of the naturalistic one we hold today. Quite simply they found the evidence too overwhelming for them to continue to hold the beliefs they did.

It is sad that their memory and the painful choice they made to believe their own eyes is disrespected by those who say 'well all science is based upon the assumption that the world is billions of years old'.

It is even sadder that poeple like Strobel, Behe et al are continually quoted over and over again ad nauseum, by people who just want to believe, but cannot accept the fact that the facts just do not support their case.
 
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Deamiter

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Right. This is where you bring up a point or two that you consider "good."

To the extent that he's borrowed C.S. Lewis' defense of Christianity, I do agree with some of his points. His discussion of intelligent design is utterly unoriginal as he is more of a redactionist (pulling material from many like Behe or AIG) than an original proponant for ID.

Anyway, on the subject of ID, I don't find that he has any good points, so it'd be hard for me to comment on them. As chaoschristian asked, would you care to mention a few so we could actually discuss something?

If I pick a point (like the fact that nothing has ever been shown to be unevolvable even if it IS irreducably complex) I suspect YECs would just say I picked a poor point and fail to engage.
 
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chaoschristian

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I appreciate your conciliatory approach.

I try. I fail. I try. I fail.

But, what happens is that one side will start hammering Strobel and concedes nothing. That is most uninteresting. Strobel does have good points.

Strobel has good points or his 'Cases' have good points?

I'll concede the former and argue the latter.

Remember what Lincoln said to the band on the day they celebrated the surrender of the South: "Play Dixie."

Well, that's sort of misconstruing the event, don't you think?

And if I remember my Lincoln history correctly, Lincoln liked the song and stated that he thought it was only fitting that the Union should re-appropriate it after having it misappropriated by the rebels.

This is actually the same view I take regarding the label 'creationist'. All Christians are Creationsists. I am a Creationist. I am, however, not a creationist.

Actually, I would like to hear what TE has to say about Strobel's good points. Not just his character and his intentions, but his science. Common sense says there are lots of valid scientific points. That would mean a real discussion is possible.

Strobel employs strawmen to present evolutionary theory in The Case for a Creator. There's not a lot of good to say either about his presentation of the science, or the people he chose as experts on the science.

I can't find my copy of the book right now. I used to keep it handy, but I may have given it away.

Doesn't he present something like ten pictures of evolution or something like that? Pick one and let's talk about it.
 
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Gwenyfur

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Strobel's work in 'The Case for a Creator' is flawed to say the least. Care to discuss any points in particular?

How so? I've only read the first couple of chapters so far....got sidetracked with moving and the holidays and haven't had a chance to finish it yet...
 
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shernren

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Yes it is interesting stuff. Not all of it exactly right, but many of them are on the right track.

Science is a mess in many ways. Lots of victories, but lots of conflicting ideas and big holes in important areas.

Don't sweat the scoffers who think fellowship starts with being snide.

The "criteria" for study are interesting and no, science eschews its own standards, especially where creationists are concerned.

Biblical knowledge is every bit as valid (and then some) in its description of how things were and are. Don't let them tell you any different.
Being snide with science may be less offensive to you than being snide with Christianity (it certainly is to me) but it is still being snide all the same. Science is really not a mess in many ways, and I'm sure many scientists will take offense at your stating that their work is a mess in many ways. Perhaps you could tell us what some of those ways are, what some of those big holes are, and just what you think can patch those big holes? From where I'm standing science certainly does have a lot of conflicts, but small conflicts surrounding firmly evidenced central propositions. Your position strikes me as being similar with that of someone who would pick a fight with Christianity just because Roman Catholics and Protestants won't agree on what happens to the bread and wine during Holy Communion.

I'll be frank and say that I haven't watched the video, or read the Strobel book that it is supposedly based on. So I'm with Mallon in anticipating any one of those "scientific facts" to be brought up here for focused discussion.
 
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busterdog

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Being snide with science may be less offensive to you than being snide with Christianity (it certainly is to me) but it is still being snide all the same. Science is really not a mess in many ways, and I'm sure many scientists will take offense at your stating that their work is a mess in many ways. Perhaps you could tell us what some of those ways are, what some of those big holes are, and just what you think can patch those big holes? From where I'm standing science certainly does have a lot of conflicts, but small conflicts surrounding firmly evidenced central propositions. Your position strikes me as being similar with that of someone who would pick a fight with Christianity just because Roman Catholics and Protestants won't agree on what happens to the bread and wine during Holy Communion.

I'll be frank and say that I haven't watched the video, or read the Strobel book that it is supposedly based on. So I'm with Mallon in anticipating any one of those "scientific facts" to be brought up here for focused discussion.

I am sure it sounds like alot things.

Holes: no unified theory, no comprehension of extra-dimensional physics, no cure for cancer, no solution to global warming, it put Bill Gates in charge of the computing universe.

QED.

Most scientific solutions to big human problems exist in theory. That is not because the world is too stupid to listen to scientists (mostly). Its because science doesn't understand the world. Lots of victories have been significant, eg, antibiotics, but are temporary.

Mess is snide? That insults people? I guess I am not being heard.

Military science is very effective when used correctly. See Joshua. Most sciences work great when used similarly.

What can patch the gaps? The God of the gaps. (I have yet to see what that term is so offensive, or so obviously flawed. Its like an inside joke only naturalist/scientists seem to get. The gaps seem to be pretty well established, according to scripture.)

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
 
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