The Carpatho-Russian Orthodox church?

[Virgil the Roman]

I've seen a something about the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church and the OCA, what's unique or different about these Orthodox as compared to an Antiochian Orthodox? I'm very curious, as because I don't know anything about them. I may give them a look as soon as I get my car back, and return home in the winter.

 

[choirfiend]

The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese (ACROD) and the OCA (Orthodox Church in America) are both Orthodox jurisdictions in America. The OCA came from the Russian Orthodox Church. ACROD was created when a bunch of Byzantine Catholics returned to the Orthodox Church en masse early last century.

Distinctive things between them and Antiochian is that they are possibly more culturally Russian or Carpartho than Arab. You're most likely going to hear music sung in 4 parts. In all three jurisdictions, English is almost certainly the language of the service. The OCA is self-governing completely; the Antiochian Archdioscese in the US has bishops appointed by the head of the Antiochian Orthodox Church (Patriarch Ignatius) located in Antioch, (Damascus) Syria.

They are all fully Orthodox, and are united by a common faith and the common cup.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

Distinctive things between them and Antiochian is that they are possibly more culturally Russian or Carpartho than Arab.

They aren't Russian and Carpatho isn't an ethnicity, it's a description of geographical location. Carpatho-Russian is a distinct ethnicity in itself, which is also known as Rusin/Rusyn or Ruthenian. They are Slavs, closely related to the Russians who are found in the Transcarpathian region, roughly from eastern Slovakia to western Ukraine (there are also some in northern Romania). They aren't necessarily all in ACROD as there are Carpatho-Russian Orthodox throughout that region. They also weren't, I don't believe, all absorbed into the Unia though you are correct that many of them were. There are some interesting articles about them and their history on this site:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/hp.htm

This one, for instance, is fairly recent:

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/frdimitry.htm

James

 

[ClementofRome]

Well said choirfiend. Also the ACROD uses a form of "plain chant" that appears to be unique. Do you want to elaborate on that choir? You are more versed in that discussion than I.

 

[Ilian]

They are Slavs, closely related to the Russians who are found in the Transcarpathian region, roughly from eastern Slovakia to western Ukraine (there are also some in northern Romania).

Generally included are the Rusyns, Bojkos, Hutsuls and the Lemkos of Eastern Poland.

They aren't necessarily all in ACROD as there are Carpatho-Russian Orthodox throughout that region. They also weren't, I don't believe, all absorbed into the Unia though you are correct that many of them were

What makes up the ACROD today mostly came from the Dioceses of Prešov and Užhorod, which for the most part did go over in the Unia.

--

There’s a lot of history in all of this, but I don’t think anyone would be interested in too much detail. The fact is historically speaking the Russian Missionary Diocese (later the Metropolia, later the OCA) was never a great Russian church. It was, like the ACROD, made up initially of former Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics who had immigrated from parts of the Habsburg Empire. St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre (Fr. Alexis Toth) is probably the most famous example. It was after his credentials as a Catholic priest were rejected (he was a widower), that he began to lead the movement back to Orthodoxy around the turn of the 20th century. What this group did however was Russify themselves and adopt Great Russian traditions as being truly “Orthodox”, just like many who joined the Unia took on Latinisms to prove they were “Catholic”. Many clergy in the North American Missionary Diocese became openly hostile to Rusyn traditions, including the liturgical music that was used without the Russian notation (Prostopinije), which became derisively referred to as “Uniatskoje pinije”. Those clergy adopted the Great Russian choral tradition as the norm.

When the group under Bishop Chornock came back to the church in the wake of Cum data fuerit in the 1930’s, they made the conscious decision not to join with the Metropolia and to go to Constantinople. What they wanted to do above all else was to protect their Rusyn traditions, which undoubtedly would have been lost. Interestingly, some churches of the OCA did join the ACROD back in the 70’s over changes made in the OCA at the time.

You will see numerous differences now if you go to a parish of the OCA or the ACROD. Prostopinije is one of the obvious ones. My parish (ACROD) is lucky enough to have three very talented cantors that lead the congregation in singing. The liturgy is different as well. The OCA because it Russified, uses a typikon in line with the Nikonian reforms of the Muscovite church. Our diocese maintains a typikon that was not modified by these reforms and is distinctive in a number of ways. Our English translations are different as well. Priests and Bishops in the ACROD also tend to favor Greek style vestments. There’s other differences I’m sure I could think of given some more time, but those are some of the main ones.

 

[ClementofRome]

Thanks for that Ilian and jmbejdl....we have been attending a small ACROD in recent months and your posts have been very helpful to me.

 

[Ilian]

Clement, may the Lord bless you in your journey. I hope you have been welcomed in the parish you've been attending. The Carpatho-Russian diocese is small, but I feel has a lot of heart. We are also blessed with a truly holy and wonderful ruling Metropolitan.

Regarding the thread, I just remembered one other difference you would likely run across as well. The ACROD for the most part retains the Old Calendar, though parishes may use the new if desired. The OCA uses the New almost exclusively (except for Alaska). This was something sadly mandated and forced on many parishes by the OCA hierarchy.

 

[Ilian]

Clement, there's also a couple of books you could ask your priest about. "Insights into the Orthodox Faith", which has some history of the Rusyn church along with general info about Orthodoxy. There's also "Good Victory" which is specifically about the history of the ACROD. Both are by Fr. Lawrence Barriger.

 

[ClementofRome]

Clement, there's also a couple of books you could ask your priest about. "Insights into the Orthodox Faith", which has some history of the Rusyn church along with general info about Orthodoxy. There's also "Good Victory" which is specifically about the history of the ACROD. Both are by Fr. Lawrence Barriger.

Thank you for this information;....and YES we have been warmly welcomed. It is a small parish (around 25 in attendance), yet we are about to break ground on a new Temple within the year! They have been celebrating D/L in a house-converted into a Temple for around 10 years. The new worship space will be wonderful and we are very excited. Since I am waiting for my wife to "receive the call" before I jump....it is possible that we could be chrismated by Metropolitan Nicholas when he comes to bless the new Temple.

Well, that is my dream at any rate.

You have been quite helpful.

 

[Oblio]

Regarding the thread, I just remembered one other difference you would likely run across as well. The ACROD for the most part retains the Old Calendar, though parishes may use the new if desired. The OCA uses the New almost exclusively (except for Alaska). This was something sadly mandated and forced on many parishes by the OCA hierarchy.

Would it be possible to discuss an issue without looking for ways to take potshots at the OCA ? Are you ex-OCA, your attitude regarding her in numerous threads is indicative of such ?

At least you are not claiming that the calendar change was a form of oppression

 

[Ilian]

Would it be possible to discuss an issue without looking for ways to take potshots at the OCA ?

I didn't think I was taking a potshot at anybody. The question was asked what some of the differences are, and I noted the calendar is one. I simply gave a matter of fact statement as to why that is.

Are you ex-OCA, your attitude regarding her in numerous threads is indicative of such ?

No, and I don't have any issues with the OCA. I don't recall singling out the OCA for criticism either.

Every jurisdiction has its issues.

At least you are not claiming that the calendar change was a form of oppression

The way then Bishop Herman implemented in the change in my opinion was extremely poorly handled, un-pastoral and led to a lot of hard feelings.

 

[Michael G]

I didn't think I was taking a potshot at anybody. The question was asked what some of the differences are, and I noted the calendar is one. I simply gave a matter of fact statement as to why that is.

No, and I don't have any issues with the OCA. I don't recall singling out the OCA for criticism either.

Every jurisdiction has its issues.

The way then Bishop Herman implemented in the change in my opinion was extremely poorly handled, un-pastoral and led to a lot of hard feelings.

I think we ALL need to be very careful of how we talk about bishops. They are our God given leaders, and unless they have come out and done some grievous wrong doings they should be given the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Oblio]

The way then Bishop Herman implemented in the change in my opinion was extremely poorly handled, un-pastoral and led to a lot of hard feelings.

Fair enough. Then there is only one thing to do as a Christian if you or others feel offended or have hard feelings, and that is to forgive and move on

 

[Nickolai]

I didn't think I was taking a potshot at anybody. The question was asked what some of the differences are, and I noted the calendar is one. I simply gave a matter of fact statement as to why that is.

No, and I don't have any issues with the OCA. I don't recall singling out the OCA for criticism either.

Every jurisdiction has its issues.

The way then Bishop Herman implemented in the change in my opinion was extremely poorly handled, un-pastoral and led to a lot of hard feelings.

Vladika Herman was perfectly within his "rights" to make all the parishes in his diocese RJC. The Bishop is the final say on things like that. There were hard feelings, but those hard feelings were the fault of the stuborness of the people, not the "un-pastoral" nature of the change.

That being said, I don't think the RJC should have been created, but Met. (then Archbishop) Herman was perfectly within his pastoral limits.

Reader Nikolai

 

[Iacobus]

There has been some excellent information about ACROD posted. It really is a wonderful jurisdiction, and we have been very happy to be a part of it.

Just to round out the information, we have 75 parishes and about ten official missions. Our bishop is Metropolitan Nicholas, who is a wonderful ruling hierarch. I can't say enough about him, either as a bishop or as a human being. When he visits parishes, you will always see him mobbed by kids, who seem to instinctively sense his warmth and love.

We have our own seminary, Christ the Saviour in Johnstown, PA. It is very focused on the day to day realities of pastoral care, and tends to be more oriented toward training effective parish priests than scholars. The Metropolitan also very seriously encourages late vocations through the diocesan diaconal program. This consists of one weekend a month in Johnstown for four years, with papers, readings and exams. I am in my third year, and can tell you that it is a great experience. Not only is the learning excellent, but you connect with a very good group of guys. There is a lot of work, but at least it keeps us off the streets and out of trouble. As a bonus, if the Metropolitan is in town -- his residence is about a block away -- he will frequently join us for meals. Thus far, one of my classmates has been ordained to the priesthood and a second will be next month. Both of them were already deacons when they started the program. We will probably start seeing ordinations to the diaconate for some of the rest of us over the coming months.

Finally -- whew! -- like all jurisdictions there is some variety in liturgical practice. At least one of our parishes is a purely Russian parish, while most of the rest follow the unique Carpatho-Russian traditions, including congregational singing of plainchant. I think there are also OCA parishes which came out of the same tradition and follow similar customs. Many of the parishes are quite diverse. My own, in Woodstock in North Atlanta, has Russians, Greeks, some with middle eastern roots and a ton of converts, along with a core of people with a Carpatho-Russian background.

Subdeacon Seraphim

 

[ClementofRome]

Thank you for that Iacobus!

Clem

 

[Ilian]

Vladika Herman was perfectly within his "rights" to make all the parishes in his diocese RJC. The Bishop is the final say on things like that. There were hard feelings, but those hard feelings were the fault of the stuborness of the people, not the "un-pastoral" nature of the change.

Nickolai, a bishop can be within his rights, and still not be doing what is right. I personally find it sad that you blame the parishioners themselves and their "stuborness". This thread is not about the OCA or Metropolitan Herman though, and what he has done for good or bad in that matter or others will be up to the people in his charge to decide.

I am myself grateful and happy to be on the traditional Orthodox calendar.

 

[OrthoTauf]

I have mixed feelings about the current calendar situation. I'm very glad to be on the RJC for fixed feasts and fasts, since it is the accurate astronomical calendar. I am dismayed and very uncomfortable having to follow the OJC for movable feasts because it violates the intent of the Nicene Council. Pascha was supposed to relate to the equinox, not to a fixed date on a calendar that continues to grow further out of sync with God's markers of time in the heavens. I don't think the council expected this dys-synchronization. But this thread is not about calendars!

My OCA parish is of Carpatho-Russian origin. We sing in four parts. Some of our customs, such as having only one Lamb, are, as I understand it, more Greek than Slavic. There is, sadly, a resistance to our having a Russian fest on the part of some who like to insist we are an American church, not a Russian one. I have no problem with the parish's heritage, however, though being German and English. An overwhelming majority of members are converts and their children, so our ethnicity is German, English, Scottish, Irish, Italian, Greek, African, Russian, Rusyn, and African-American. We have plenty of exes--ex-Catholics, Mennonites, Amish, Baptists, Anglicans, Lutherans, Jews, Methodists, you-name-it.

 

[Ilian]

There is, sadly, a resistance to our having a Russian fest on the part of some who like to insist we are an American church, not a Russian one.

Very sad indeed.

 

[MariaRegina]

Clement, may the Lord bless you in your journey. I hope you have been welcomed in the parish you've been attending. The Carpatho-Russian diocese is small, but I feel has a lot of heart. We are also blessed with a truly holy and wonderful ruling Metropolitan.

Regarding the thread, I just remembered one other difference you would likely run across as well. The ACROD for the most part retains the Old Calendar, though parishes may use the new if desired. The OCA uses the New almost exclusively (except for Alaska). This was something sadly mandated and forced on many parishes by the OCA hierarchy.

The OCA is more open to using the Old Calendar especially when converts want to start a mission using the Old Calendar.

The OCA parishes in Alaska are now totally Old Calendar but it wasn't always that way.

Here in Southern California, there are several OCA parishes that use the Old Calendar. Bishop Tikhon and Bishop Benjamin have to keep that in mind whenever they travel. This may enable them to celebrate the feast of the Nativity twice. That must be confusing at times.