The calvinism versus arminianism debate.

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
effectually "the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2

I did not know there were SDA who were Universalists.

SDAs are not universalists and we don't down-size bend-wrench 1 John 2:2 to not say that Christ is "the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

So then we don't claim as some others do "World does not mean world and whole world does not mean whole world and is does not mean is ...". Instead of breaking the text in those sorts of ways -- SDAs simply accept that God Himself informs us about the "full definition" of Atonement in Lev 16 where it requires BOTH the "Atoning Sacrifice" of the lamb of God slain, Christ as the Lamb of God AND IT ALSO requires the work of Christ in heaven as High priest.

No wonder then that Paul says "THE MAIN POINT is this we have a High Priest seated at the right hand of the Father" Heb 8:1 when he talks about the Gospel , New Covenant.

Put simply - we don't play the games found so often in Calvinism

 

[BobRyan]

(youleft out: 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.)
Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

Thanks for bringing up Acts 18 -- I quote it often in the "Sabbath and the Law" section of the discussion board.

So then the more full - quote of Acts 18 showing BOTH Jew AND Gentiles being reached.

Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Please address the context of the passages I actually quoted:

That is the MORE full context quote than what you gave. details

fits the much-predicted Arminian Gospel we find here -- by Paul

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Another example where "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 is the method used in gospel evangelism

As God said "what MORE could I have done than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for bringing up Acts 13

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.
----
I love to bring Acts 13 up on the "Sabbath and the Law" discussion area of this board.

But not sure how it is helping Calvinism.

The "more full quote in context" then is

Acts 13

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

So that quote in more context than you gave it would be

Acts 13

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43 Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God.

44The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming. 46Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

47 For this is what the LORD has commanded us: "'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. 49And the word of the Lord was being spread through the whole region. 50But the Jews incited the devout women of prominence and the leading men of the city, and instigated a persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51But they shook off the dust of their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 52And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.


where "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 is the method used.

As God said "what MORE could I have done than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

redleghunter said: ↑
Please address the context of the passages I actually quoted:

That is the MORE full context quote than what you gave. details

 

[BobRyan]

Calvinisms progresses by the means of 'extreme inference' against the explicit statements found in the text being quoted

 

[JLB777]

I wonder sometimes if this debate is fruitful, it does go on a bit. Imagine if John Wesley (an Arminian) and George Whitefield (a Calvinist) had remain locked in argument with each other for years and not engaged in any evangelistic outreach. Instead they both parted company and went their own ways, and continued to preach the Gospel, as a result more people heard the gospel than if they had continued to minister together. As far as I can see both Arminians and Calvinists preach the Gospel.

Claiming the title or name Calvinist or Arminian is sin.

We are followers of Jesus Christ, not John Calvin or Paul or John or anyone other than Jesus Christ.


There is one doctrine to teach and believe.


The doctrine of Christ.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



Paul says it this way -


Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 1:11-13




JLB

 

[BobRyan]

Claiming the title or name Calvinist or Arminian is sin.
JLB

it helps to succinctly get to the point on a question of belief in the Gospel and just what the Gospel is saying rather than repeat large paragraphs with every post about what the Gospel is.

 

[JLB777]

it helps to succinctly get to the point on a question of belief in the Gospel and just what the Gospel is saying rather than repeat large paragraphs with every post about what the Gospel is.

What does this have to do with following the teachings of Calvin, rather than Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

What does this have to do with following the teachings of Calvin, rather than Christ.

It is not "Calvin vs Arminius" rather it is "Calvinism" vs "Arminianism" which is a teaching and particular doctrinal statement on free will and the Gospel, predestination and the Gospel.

Question put simply - does God really Love all, offer the Gospel to all and then enable all to accept it if they choose? Is it "whosoever will" may come? Is it "if anyone hears my voice and opens the door I will come in"?


or is it as some say "I arbitrarily select some but not others and it has nothing at all to do with the person choosing"?? Does God select some to accept and not select others such that everyone he selects must accept and everyone he fails to select must reject the gospel?

A robot-like solution places all the credit - and therefore all the blame - on God who sets up the system and acts without any reference to independent choice. In Calvinism the focus ostensibly is to get all the credit going to God and the wild claim that if the person is allowed to choose "so as to make a difference in the outcome" then some of the credit due to God is lost.

This is not a trivial difference in my opinion.

The result?

You will see a number of bible texts being quoted to see if they support one view or the other. What you don't see is Arminius or Calvin being quoted.

 

[redleghunter]

So then the more full - quote of Acts 18 showing BOTH Jew AND Gentiles being reached.

Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.




That is the MORE full context quote than what you gave. details

fits the much-predicted Arminian Gospel we find here -- by Paul

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Another example where "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 is the method used in gospel evangelism

As God said "what MORE could I have done than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

If you are not going to address the context and the actual text then you are just wasting my time.

 

[redleghunter]

Calvinisms progresses by the means of 'extreme inference' against the explicit statements found in the text being quoted

I gave you explicit statements.

SDA have to run through their interpretations to ensure they match the prophecies of Ellen G White.

 

[redleghunter]

it helps to succinctly get to the point on a question of belief in the Gospel and just what the Gospel is saying rather than repeat large paragraphs with every post about what the Gospel is.

Right like knowing about how important the teachings of Ellen G White are you the SDA.

 

[BobRyan]

Calvinisms progresses by the means of 'extreme inference' against the explicit statements found in the text being quoted

Note this focus on "the text being quoted"

SDA have to run through their interpretations to ensure they match the prophecies of Ellen G White.

How in the world do you get that non-Calvinism is only found among Seventh-day Adventists?? where does that stuff come from?

Right like knowing about how important the teachings of Ellen G White are you the SDA.

Each time the Bible comes up you think it is Ellen White?? seriously??

 

[BobRyan]

(youleft out: 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.)
Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized.

Thanks for bringing up Acts 18 -- I quote it often in the "Sabbath and the Law" section of the discussion board.

So then the more full - quote of Acts 18 showing BOTH Jew AND Gentiles being reached.

Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Please address the context of the passages I actually quoted:

That is the MORE full context quote than what you gave.... details

fits the much-predicted Arminian Gospel we find here -- by Paul

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Another example where "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 is the method used in gospel evangelism

As God said "what MORE could I have done than what I have already done?" Is 5:4

If you are not going to address the context and the actual text then you are just wasting my time.

I gave you your own full quote of Acts 18 and added even MORE context -- to show the point... and you find that not to your liking??

Seriously?

you have free will you don't need to accept those texts if you don't want to. Not trying to force you to accept them.

 

[redleghunter]

So then the more full - quote of Acts 18 showing BOTH Jew AND Gentiles being reached.

Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.




That is the MORE full context quote than what you gave.... details

fits the much-predicted Arminian Gospel we find here -- by Paul

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Another example where "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 is the method used in gospel evangelism

As God said "what MORE could I have done than what I have already done?" Is 5:4




I gave you your own full quote of Acts 18 and added even MORE context -- to show the point... and you find that not to your liking??

Seriously?

you have free will you don't need to accept those texts if you don't want to. Not trying to force you to accept them.

Yet you did not address what I pointed out. Now three times.

 

[redleghunter]

So then the more full - quote of Acts 18 showing BOTH Jew AND Gentiles being reached.

Acts 18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7Then he left there and went to the house of a man named Titius Justus, a worshiper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue. 8Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, believed in the Lord with all his household, and many of the Corinthians when they heard were believing and being baptized. 9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.




That is the MORE full context quote than what you gave.... details

fits the much-predicted Arminian Gospel we find here -- by Paul

Rom 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Another example where "WE BEG YOU on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5 is the method used in gospel evangelism

As God said "what MORE could I have done than what I have already done?" Is 5:4




I gave you your own full quote of Acts 18 and added even MORE context -- to show the point... and you find that not to your liking??

Seriously?

you have free will you don't need to accept those texts if you don't want to. Not trying to force you to accept them.

Ok you won’t address my posts. Bye.

 

[JLB777]

It is not "Calvin vs Arminius" rather it is "Calvinism" vs "Arminianism" which is a teaching and particular doctrinal statement on free will and the Gospel, predestination and the Gospel.

What does this have to do with following the teachings of Calvin (Calvinism) verses following the teachings of Christ?




JLB

 

[redleghunter]

What does this have to do with following the teachings of Calvin (Calvinism) verses following the teachings of Christ?




JLB

I hear ya. Just another straw man to knock down.

Only people quoting Calvin here are Arminians and Finneyites.

 

[JLB777]

I hear ya. Just another straw man to knock down.

Only people quoting Calvin here are Arminians and Finneyites.

Obeying the teachings of Calvin (Calvinism) will result in Calvin being your Lord and savior.


Obeying the teaching of Christ will result in Jesus Christ being your Lord and Savior.


Your Lord is the one you obey.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




JLB

 

[redleghunter]

Obeying the teachings of Calvin (Calvinism) will result in Calvin being your Lord and savior.


Obeying the teaching of Christ will result in Jesus Christ being your Lord and Savior.


Your Lord is the one you obey.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9




JLB

Again the only ones quoting Calvin are the non-Reformed.

Quite interesting.

 

[JLB777]

Again the only ones quoting Calvin are the non-Reformed.

Quite interesting.

That’s your opinion.


Only those who remain in the doctrine of Christ, will receive eternal salvation.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9



Interesting.




JLB