The Caliphate Ultimatum

[Strivax]

So, religion, or rather, religiosity, once more proves itself antithetical to the notion of 'the love of God'. Isis - the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria - has issued it's verdict on Christendom. Any Christian in it's area of influence is to convert to Islam, or to pay a protection tax, or to face death by the sword. There is only one other unstated option, and that is to flee one's home, livelihood, network of friends and relations, and so on.

Well, this is the philosophy topic. I'm not interested in the hideous, extremist perversion of Islam that arrives at this result, but in the morally correct response to it.

What do you all think?

Love and stuff, Strivax.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

So, religion, or rather, religiosity, once more proves itself antithetical to the notion of 'the love of God'. Isis - the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria - has issued it's verdict on Christendom. Any Christian in it's area of influence is to convert to Islam, or to pay a protection tax, or to face death by the sword. There is only one other unstated option, and that is to flee one's home, livelihood, network of friends and relations, and so on.

Well, this is the philosophy thread. I'm not interested in the hideous, extremist perversion of Islam that arrives at this result, but in the morally correct response to it.

What do you all think?

Love and stuff, Strivax.

To not return evil for evil.

 

[Strivax]

To not return evil for evil.

Good start.

Cheers, S.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I would say that if this is the system they choose to live under...so be it. They are free to make that choice.

 

[Received]

Ana, did you write the poem in your signature? It's brilliant.

 

[Paradoxum]

I would say that if this is the system they choose to live under...so be it. They are free to make that choice.

The Christians in the area didn't choose that system. Tyranny of the majority (or just plain tyranny) isn't respectable.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ana, did you write the poem in your signature? It's brilliant.

Nope...I liked it too though.

It's from a video game, Morrowind, where there are lots of "books" in the game that the player can pick up and read. If I remember correctly, it's from a collection of poems about a mad god. (Or written by a mad god) There were quite a few other good poems in there as well.

The game also has a collection of texts that serve as the basis for one of the in-game religions. It's a bit dense and complicated, but actually quite brilliant as well. It's my favorite religious tome out of all that I've read (real life religious tomes included).

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

I would say that if this is the system they choose to live under...so be it. They are free to make that choice.

You would be singing a very different tune if you lived in Iraq or Syria, trust me.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The Christians in the area didn't choose that system. Tyranny of the majority (or just plain tyranny) isn't respectable.

Oh I didn't say I respected it. The question the OP asks is "what is the morally correct response to it?"

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Oh I didn't say I respected it. The question the OP asks is "what is the morally correct response to it?"

So what is your response?

 

[Received]

Nope...I liked it too though.

It's from a video game, Morrowind, where there are lots of "books" in the game that the player can pick up and read. If I remember correctly, it's from a collection of poems about a mad god. (Or written by a mad god) There were quite a few other good poems in there as well.

The game also has a collection of texts that serve as the basis for one of the in-game religions. It's a bit dense and complicated, but actually quite brilliant as well. It's my favorite religious tome out of all that I've read (real life religious tomes included).

Now you're a real gamer.

I take it the following formula applies to you:

Morrowind < Skyrim < Morrowind + mods

 

[Ana the Ist]

You would be singing a very different tune if you lived in Iraq or Syria, trust me.

Well of course I was speaking of what I consider to be the morally right thing to do as myself under my current circumstances. If I were christian living under that system...my response would change depending on how much I had to lose. If I were Muslim living under those circumstances, my morality would likely change even further.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Now you're a real gamer.

I take it the following formula applies to you:

Morrowind < Skyrim < Morrowind + mods

Lol I was never a big mod enthusiast.

I think Skyrim is the better game overall...but Morrowind had maybe the best story/writing of any game I've ever played. Better even than many books I've read.

 

[FireDragon76]

The Jizya tax is just "Old Time Religion".

 

[Strivax]

OK, so I'm a little disappointed thus far in the quality of response.

For what it's worth though, I've been playing Elder Scrolls online, and would be playing it a lot more if it didn't crash my system so often.

But back to the topic in hand.

Here are some questions that you might care to tackle.

Is any conversion under the threat of death a real conversion?

What might happen if the west allows this Caliphate to continue to exist?

If you, as a Christian, lived in this Caliphate, what would you do? Convert, pay the tax, flee, or witness your faith by martyrdom?

If you, as a Muslim, lived in this Caliphate, would you support or condemn this routing out of differing beliefs? (You may like to think how you would react if some extreme Christian sect took power of your neighbourhood by force, and threatened Muslims with death unless they converted.)

Love and stuff, Strivax

 

[theophilus777]

So, religion, or rather, religiosity, once more proves itself antithetical to the notion of 'the love of God'. Isis - the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria -

I was wondering what it meant that we don't hear about ISIS any more. they changed their name. (To just the State of Iraq I think?)

has issued it's verdict on Christendom. Any Christian in it's area of influence is to convert to Islam, or to pay a protection tax, or to face death by the sword. There is only one other unstated option, and that is to flee one's home

As of when you posted this, it was already too late to flee. I wonder what lengths they went to to notify Christians and give them legitimate opportunity to flee? The Christian population of over 100,000 was down to 5,000 as of a month ago or so.

Well, this is the philosophy topic. I'm not interested in the hideous, extremist perversion of Islam that arrives at this result, but in the morally correct response to it.

For the US to be non-interventionist and watch to see if Iran actually gets involved with Sunnis at all, or if they step in at all if it is just to protect the Shia?

We must recognize that just like the end of the Viet Nam war, our former enemy took over our former positions as soon as we left. This means we lost the war.

 

[theophilus777]

The Jizya tax is just "Old Time Religion".

Here's the thing: what amount? Is it applied fairly? the basic concept really isn't so bad. Only the Muslims are in the army, so the Christians don't have to serve. If we were all teleported to draft era Viet Nam and drafted, how much would we be willing to pay to legally duck out of service?

Of course point 2 is what's the rest of that old time religion dhimmi status?

 

[theophilus777]

If you, as a Christian, lived in this Caliphate, what would you do? Convert, pay the tax, flee, or witness your faith by martyrdom?

D. None of the above. Swordfight the corrupt so and sos

If you, as a Muslim, lived in this Caliphate, would you support or condemn this routing out of differing beliefs? (You may like to think how you would react if some extreme Christian sect took power of your neighbourhood by force, and threatened Muslims with death unless they converted.)

Now this is the real question. And sadly, every peaceful Muslim you and I know would not stick their neck out on our behalf in this situation. Due to ethical reasons, or just those of religiosity.

 

[PsychoSarah]

So, religion, or rather, religiosity, once more proves itself antithetical to the notion of 'the love of God'. Isis - the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria - has issued it's verdict on Christendom. Any Christian in it's area of influence is to convert to Islam, or to pay a protection tax, or to face death by the sword. There is only one other unstated option, and that is to flee one's home, livelihood, network of friends and relations, and so on.

Well, this is the philosophy topic. I'm not interested in the hideous, extremist perversion of Islam that arrives at this result, but in the morally correct response to it.

What do you all think?

Love and stuff, Strivax.

Exactly how would they prove they were Muslim? I mean, you can attend the Islamic services and act out the worship without actually having the beliefs.

 

[Ana the Ist]

D. None of the above. Swordfight the corrupt so and sos



Now this is the real question. And sadly, every peaceful Muslim you and I know would not stick their neck out on our behalf in this situation. Due to ethical reasons, or just those of religiosity.

I don't think that's a realistic view of Muslims...or the devoted followers of any religion really. If you, me, or anyone else here were a devoted Muslim, raised as they are in most mideastern nations, we'd probably agree with the policy as it's consistent with the Koran. We'd see it as fair (from the time I've spent on a Muslim forum not unlike CF, they think it's fair as well). If we're being realistic...we wouldn't see it as religious persecution...we'd see it as doing god's will.

For example, how many christians in the US think that preventing homosexuals from being legally married is religious persecution? Probably not a big percentage, right? Now consider how open our nation is in being able to discuss and argue such things freely without having to worry about being jailed or punished for going against conventional christian teachings. Many mideastern nations don't even allow those types of discussions to see the light of day.

Realistically, if I were Muslim in that nation that enacted such laws...I'd agree with them sincerely. At the very least I'd openly support them....just as everyone else would.