The Caliphate Ultimatum

[Strivax]

Exactly how would they prove they were Muslim? I mean, you can attend the Islamic services and act out the worship without actually having the beliefs.

For me, this is a key question. Can you change your beliefs under external compulsion? Can you change your beliefs just because it is advantageous to do so? I don't think you can. If you think something to be true, no bodily torture can alter it's truth value for you.

To become a Muslim, though, all you need do is proclaim God and Mohammed as His prophet, before a suitable witness. I am not sure Muslims stress beliefs in quite the same way Christians do. The outward shows of faith, the lifestyle of a Muslim, the adherence to the five pillars of Islam, obedience to the rulings of Islamic scholars, these things seem to carry more weight with them than the kind of internal mental state of grace that accompanies true Christian belief.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[football5680]

So, religion, or rather, religiosity, once more proves itself antithetical to the notion of 'the love of God'. Isis - the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria - has issued it's verdict on Christendom. Any Christian in it's area of influence is to convert to Islam, or to pay a protection tax, or to face death by the sword. There is only one other unstated option, and that is to flee one's home, livelihood, network of friends and relations, and so on.

Well, this is the philosophy topic. I'm not interested in the hideous, extremist perversion of Islam that arrives at this result, but in the morally correct response to it.

What do you all think?

Christians under their authority should agree to pay the tax to preserve their life but Christians on the outside should fight to free them from tyranny.

Is any conversion under the threat of death a real conversion?

It would not be a real conversion if you don't actually believe in it but you should not deny your faith. The apostles are our role models and they were killed for refusing to deny Jesus. If we are put in the same situation then we should do the same. Everybody will die eventually and martyrdom is the most glorious death possible.

What might happen if the west allows this Caliphate to continue to exist?

Difficult to say. I don't see the rest of the Muslim world taking them seriously so they are not a true caliphate. If they gained more power and Muslims started accepting them then we would probably see another Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire continuously attacked the Western World until their collapse and I would expect ISIS to do the same.

If you, as a Christian, lived in this Caliphate, what would you do? Convert, pay the tax, flee, or witness your faith by martyrdom?

I would pay the tax. The Bible tells us to respect the authority of the state we live under to a certain extent. If we are able to practice our religion and the state doesn't force us to do something that goes against Christianity then we should accept it. Life would be more difficult but it is just something we would have to put up with if we did not have the power to change anything.

If you, as a Muslim, lived in this Caliphate, would you support or condemn this routing out of differing beliefs? (You may like to think how you would react if some extreme Christian sect took power of your neighbourhood by force, and threatened Muslims with death unless they converted.)

If a Muslim believes in the Quran and Muhammad then this is something that they must accept and view as a good thing. The Quran tells them to force the unbelievers to pay the Jizya with willing submission so that we feel ourselves subdued. Islam turns non-believers into second class citizens.

 

[bhsmte]

Exactly how would they prove they were Muslim? I mean, you can attend the Islamic services and act out the worship without actually having the beliefs.

I suppose they could hook people up to the latest lie detector machines to determine whether they truly believe.

Of course, it is my opinion, if you did this to any religious person around the world, people may be surprised at the results.

 

[theophilus777]

Exactly how would they prove they were Muslim? I mean, you can attend the Islamic services and act out the worship without actually having the beliefs.

For me, this is a key question.

Muslims simply do not care abut this. Islam means submission to God. What you DO is all that matters to them. Such forced conversion (even though Koran states there is to be no compulsion in religion) is SUPPOSED to "make you feel subjected." As in like the Muslims themselves are your Savior, with you eternally grateful to them for saving your life. The fact is this caliphate has no just reason to even need an army; all they want to do is plunder their neighbors. Hopefully their strict moral code will prevent the rape part of rape, pillage and plunder, but I'm not counting on it. Part of their approved and heralded pillage and plunder is the taking and selling slaves, including for the purpose of being used as sex slaves.

If you think something to be true, no bodily torture can alter it's truth value for you.

Reality disagrees with this much of your statement here. Not only did Star Trek explore this concept in an interesting way with Picard held in captivity, tortured until he said there are 4 lights when he clearly saw 5, but Gov. Jessie "the bod" Ventura accurately said give him a waterboard and Dick Cheney and he'll have him confessing to the Manson murder is less than 15 minutes.

None of this means a forced conversion is sincere. The whole "dhimmi" status is designed to reflect that; everyone knows they aren't real Muslims, so they will never case to be shunned.

To become a Muslim, though, all you need do is proclaim God and Mohammed as His prophet, before a suitable witness. I am not sure Muslims stress beliefs in quite the same way Christians do. The outward shows of faith, the lifestyle of a Muslim, the adherence to the five pillars of Islam, obedience to the rulings of Islamic scholars, these things seem to carry more weight with them than the kind of internal mental state of grace that accompanies true Christian belief.

Yup yup

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Exactly how would they prove they were Muslim? I mean, you can attend the Islamic services and act out the worship without actually having the beliefs.

There's probably nothing you could do to convince them that you were a Muslim, because it's not an ideological thing for ISIS so much as it is a method for violent thugs to pillage without pillaging. If you tried to convince them, they would probably force you to "martyr" yourself.

 

[theophilus777]

So how much was the jizya, when implemented properly?

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

So how much was the jizya, when implemented properly?

It varied. I took the part of my post referring to the traditional implementation of the jizya down because its implementation throughout history could range from a flat tax that's hard to understand without an intimate knowledge of 7th century Arabia, to a payment similar to the Shiite khums (20% of income), all the way up to what amounted to enslavement, and I'm not wanting to look like I'm justifying its implementation under any circumstances. Even governments that used it "properly" were still charging people for the right to practice their own religion, and intentionally humiliating them through a symbol of submission.

 

[theophilus777]

Thanks. If the monetary amount were roughly consistent with what you save by not going to war as a soldier, that could be seen as fair. Making it intentionally humiliating, and then being a second class citizen for life is really what I find totally unacceptable. Which is of course the whole intent of the law, to strong-arm people. So I'd challenge the bully to a duel; just let one of 'em TRY to kill me by sword!

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

Thanks. If the monetary amount were roughly consistent with what you save by not going to war as a soldier, that could be seen as fair. Making it intentionally humiliating, and then being a second class citizen for life is really what I find totally unacceptable.

That's why, in my original post, I said that the monetary aspect wouldn't be that different (the differences in cost for the jizya and zakat could be offset by the lack of a requirement for military service when it was applied more moderately, because of the lost farm productivity and possible loss of life from being forced to serve in a medieval-era army). Sometimes, things other than money are more significant, and I didn't want to seem like I was dwelling on the money when a loss of rights and respect isn't really something you can pay for.

Which is of course the whole intent of the law, to strong-arm people. So I'd challenge the bully to a duel; just let one of 'em TRY to kill me by sword!

The problem is that they tend to go after the families of people who don't pay

 

[theophilus777]

The problem is that they tend to go after the families of people who don't pay

Further strengthening their similarity with the mafia.

What's the zakat?

 

[bhsmte]

For me, this is a key question. Can you change your beliefs under external compulsion? Can you change your beliefs just because it is advantageous to do so? I don't think you can. If you think something to be true, no bodily torture can alter it's truth value for you.

To become a Muslim, though, all you need do is proclaim God and Mohammed as His prophet, before a suitable witness. I am not sure Muslims stress beliefs in quite the same way Christians do. The outward shows of faith, the lifestyle of a Muslim, the adherence to the five pillars of Islam, obedience to the rulings of Islamic scholars, these things seem to carry more weight with them than the kind of internal mental state of grace that accompanies true Christian belief.

Best wishes, Strivax.

If a law was passed stating everyone's favorite color had to be red, would everyone really start loving the color red?

If a law was passed in Boston stating you had to become a Yankees fan, would people be able to truly root for the Yankees.

You don't force, coerce or command true beliefs, it just doesn't happen.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As a Christian I'd probably look at places like Romans 12 for an ethically appropriate response, "live peaceably with all as far as it is up to you" "do not return evil for evil, but instead return evil with good" "give food to your enemy" etc. An ethically Christian response would be to treat one's oppressor with kindness. Which is easier said than done obviously.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[theophilus777]

An ethically Christian response would be to treat one's oppressor with kindness. Which is easier said than done obviously.

"That's all I can stands, and I can't stands no more" — Popeye

Suffering builds character. Is suffering at the hands of a caliphate the will of God? I think the OP asks that. Fortunately we have ample example of fleeing from the face of something like this, so those Christians that got out before it came to this are ok, on those grounds.