The Cain and Abel Story: Problems?

[Milarkey]

Now then, this time I'm going to move just a little further into Genesis: Into the story of Cain and Abel. I find it interesting that the Bible Writers were able to condense this story into merely 15 verses, considering that it is the example of the first time that a human murders another human. There are, though, gaping problems in this story.


Let's begin at Genesis 4: 1-2. Now then, Adam and Eve "know" eachother, and have 2 children; Cain and Abel. Abel is the shepherd, and Cain takes care of the ground and such.

Now let's go to Genesis 4: 3-6. Cain and Abel each bring offerings... while we're on the subject I don't get offerings really. I mean, God created the world and everything in it, so what can you possibly offer him? It's not as if you can give him something that he can't have anyway? Why make people go through the trouble, God?


Anyhow, Cain gives Yahweh fruit from the ground, and Abel gives an offering of his flock. Yahweh likes Abel's offering, but doesn't like Cain's. I never really understand why though... I mean is it really fair? It's not as if Cain had ACCESS to any sheep or animal that he could kill for Yahweh, so why not let Cain give the thing he can get easily? But NO, apparently fruit isn't good enough for Yahweh. So Cain is depressed because Yahweh won't accept his offering. I would be too, considering that he certainly couldn't have known what it was that Yahweh wanted, so is it really just for Yahweh to look down on him and his offering?

At any rate, Cain, in a fit of jealousy kills his brother, and when Yahweh sees Cain, Yahweh asks where Abel is. Now this is slightly odd considering that Yahweh is supposed to be all knowing, but let's assume that Yahweh is filling in the role of the "coy parent" here. Yahweh then says that Abel's blood cries out to him from the ground. Now of course, this is impossible, but let's just assume that this is " Yahweh speak" for "I know you killed your brother." Yahweh then punishes Cain by "cursing him from the Earth which has opened it's mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hands", I'm not quite sure what they means exactly... then he says "When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield it's strength to you." Which I suppose means that Cain now has to work in order to find food. I really don't see it as a big deal, unless of course God was making the fruit magically grow or something. I don't really get the punishment. The guy gets to leave his parents, go find a wife, and... what? What's going on here? Cain broke one of the 10 Commandment, and he doesn't exactly get an awful punishment.


There's something else odd here too. Yahweh puts a mark on Cain so that nobody would harm him, this is odd because Adam. Eve, Cain, and Yahweh are supposedly the only people on the planet, and then this "Nod" place magically appears out of nowhere. Where did it come from? It is never said in the Bible that God created anybody but Adam and Eve. So where did all these other people come from? Ok, that's all I have for now.

 

[Lisa0315]

Now then, this time I'm going to move just a little further into Genesis: Into the story of Cain and Abel. I find it interesting that the Bible Writers were able to condense this story into merely 15 verses, considering that it is the example of the first time that a human murders another human. There are, though, gaping problems in this story.


Let's begin at Genesis 4: 1-2. Now then, Adam and Eve "know" eachother, and have 2 children; Cain and Abel. Abel is the shepherd, and Cain takes care of the ground and such.

Now let's go to Genesis 4: 3-6. Cain and Abel each bring offerings... while we're on the subject I don't get offerings really. I mean, God created the world and everything in it, so what can you possibly offer him? It's not as if you can give him something that he can't have anyway? Why make people go through the trouble, God?


Anyhow, Cain gives Yahweh fruit from the ground, and Abel gives an offering of his flock. Yahweh likes Abel's offering, but doesn't like Cain's. I never really understand why though... I mean is it really fair? It's not as if Cain had ACCESS to any sheep or animal that he could kill for Yahweh, so why not let Cain give the thing he can get easily? But NO, apparently fruit isn't good enough for Yahweh. So Cain is depressed because Yahweh won't accept his offering. I would be too, considering that he certainly couldn't have known what it was that Yahweh wanted, so is it really just for Yahweh to look down on him and his offering?

At any rate, Cain, in a fit of jealousy kills his brother, and when Yahweh sees Cain, Yahweh asks where Abel is. Now this is slightly odd considering that Yahweh is supposed to be all knowing, but let's assume that Yahweh is filling in the role of the "coy parent" here. Yahweh then says that Abel's blood cries out to him from the ground. Now of course, this is impossible, but let's just assume that this is " Yahweh speak" for "I know you killed your brother." Yahweh then punishes Cain by "cursing him from the Earth which has opened it's mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hands", I'm not quite sure what they means exactly... then he says "When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield it's strength to you." Which I suppose means that Cain now has to work in order to find food. I really don't see it as a big deal, unless of course God was making the fruit magically grow or something. I don't really get the punishment. The guy gets to leave his parents, go find a wife, and... what? What's going on here? Cain broke one of the 10 Commandment, and he doesn't exactly get an awful punishment.


There's something else odd here too. Yahweh puts a mark on Cain so that nobody would harm him, this is odd because Adam. Eve, Cain, and Yahweh are supposedly the only people on the planet, and then this "Nod" place magically appears out of nowhere. Where did it come from? It is never said in the Bible that God created anybody but Adam and Eve. So where did all these other people come from? Ok, that's all I have for now.

Wow! You have alot of questions! Please read this commentary by Matthew Henry. It answers your questions far better than I can.

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=ge&chapter=4#Ge4_6

I have also provided a short biography of Matthew Henry if you do not know of him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Henry

Lisa

 

[HypnoToad]

Anyhow, Cain gives Yahweh fruit from the ground, and Abel gives an offering of his flock. Yahweh likes Abel's offering, but doesn't like Cain's. I never really understand why though... I mean is it really fair? It's not as if Cain had ACCESS to any sheep or animal that he could kill for Yahweh,

How do you know Cain "had no access" to animals?

But NO, apparently fruit isn't good enough for Yahweh. So Cain is depressed because Yahweh won't accept his offering. I would be too, considering that he certainly couldn't have known what it was that Yahweh wanted, so is it really just for Yahweh to look down on him and his offering?

The specific reason for the rejection of Cain's offering is not stated. It could be that fruit/grain would have been acceptable (God does specify for a grain offering when He formerly gives the law to Israel later on), but Cain didn't bring the best. It specifies that Abel brought his best, but it doesn't say the same of Cain.

Further, how do you know Cain didn't know what was wanted?

... then he says "When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield it's strength to you." Which I suppose means that Cain now has to work in order to find food.

It doesn't sound like simply "you have to work for food", but more like the amount of food the ground would yield for him was diminished. So Cain would have to work harder than before.

I really don't see it as a big deal, unless of course God was making the fruit magically grow or something. I don't really get the punishment. The guy gets to leave his parents, go find a wife, and... what? What's going on here? Cain broke one of the 10 Commandment, and he doesn't exactly get an awful punishment.

It's not just that he has to work harder, but now he'll always be a "fugitive and vagabond", he'll basically be detested the rest of his life by most. He isn't getting off exactly scot-free here.

There's something else odd here too. Yahweh puts a mark on Cain so that nobody would harm him, this is odd because Adam. Eve, Cain, and Yahweh are supposedly the only people on the planet,

No, they likely had a bunch of brothers and sisters around by now as well.

and then this "Nod" place magically appears out of nowhere. Where did it come from? It is never said in the Bible that God created anybody but Adam and Eve. So where did all these other people come from? Ok, that's all I have for now.

The account we have now was written well after-the-fact. It's possible that the place names were the names at the time of the writing, not the names when it actually occurred.

And "all these people" would be Adam & Eve's other children, and possibly grandchildren by this point.

 

[Lisa0315]

How do you know Cain "had no access" to animals?


The specific reason for the rejection of Cain's offering is not stated. It could be that fruit/grain would have been acceptable (God does specify for a grain offering when He formerly gives the law to Israel later on), but Cain didn't bring the best. It specifies that Abel brought his best, but it doesn't say the same of Cain.

Further, how do you know Cain didn't know what was wanted?


It doesn't sound like simply "you have to work for food", but more like the amount of food the ground would yield for him was diminished. So Cain would have to work harder than before.


It's not just that he has to work harder, but now he'll always be a "fugitive and vagabond", he'll basically be detested the rest of his life by most. He isn't getting off exactly scot-free here.


No, they likely had a bunch of brothers and sisters around by now as well.


The account we have now was written well after-the-fact. It's possible that the place names were the names at the time of the writing, not the names when it actually occurred.

And "all these people" would be Adam & Eve's other children, and possibly grandchildren by this point.

In the Matthew Henry commentary, he says that God rejected the offering not because it was not an animal sacrifice, but because Cain was already a wicked man. God judged each man not the offerings. When God accepted or rejected the offerings, it was an acceptance or rejection of the man, not the offering in of itself.

As always, God judges the heart, not the appearance of righteousness. Cain apparantly was the first Pharissee.

Lisa

 

[HypnoToad]

In the Matthew Henry commentary, he says that God rejected the offering not because it was not an animal sacrifice, but because Cain was already a wicked man. God judged each man not the offerings. When God accepted or rejected the offerings, it was an acceptance or rejection of the man, not the offering in of itself.

As always, God judges the heart, not the appearance of righteousness. Cain apparantly was the first Pharissee.

Like I said, the text doesn't specifically say. Is MH's interpretation allowed by the text? Sure. But I fail to see how the option I presented is less plausible. Either way, the fact that the specific reason isn't given is really not relevant to the validity of the account.

 

[Merlin]

Now let's go to Genesis 4: 3-6. Cain and Abel each bring offerings... while we're on the subject I don't get offerings really. I mean, God created the world and everything in it, so what can you possibly offer him? It's not as if you can give him something that he can't have anyway? Why make people go through the trouble, God?

It's a matter of willingness on our part to give up (sacrifice) something we have.

Anyhow, Cain gives Yahweh fruit from the ground, and Abel gives an offering of his flock. Yahweh likes Abel's offering, but doesn't like Cain's. I never really understand why though... I mean is it really fair? It's not as if Cain had ACCESS to any sheep or animal that he could kill for Yahweh, so why not let Cain give the thing he can get easily? But NO, apparently fruit isn't good enough for Yahweh. So Cain is depressed because Yahweh won't accept his offering. I would be too, considering that he certainly couldn't have known what it was that Yahweh wanted, so is it really just for Yahweh to look down on him and his offering?

As you point out, the scripture is brief.
We do not know that God did not lay out the specifics for sacrifice offerings.
The story is meant to show why the murder was committed, not why the sacrifice was not acceptable.

Cain broke one of the 10 Commandment, and he doesn't exactly get an awful punishment.

There were no 10 commandments. That came many hundreds of years later.

It is never said in the Bible that God created anybody but Adam and Eve.

Neither does it say He didn't.

 

[Raph]

Illustration between the difference of the spiritual and carnal man. The spiritual man puts God first in his life and is killed by the carnal man for it. God gives the carnal man a chance to repent for his actions but he chooses to deny his sin to God so God is forced to punish him for his crime.

Isn't this what happen to Jesus?


.

 

[tapero]

Milarkey;33706304

Now then, this time I'm going to move just a little further into Genesis: Into the story of Cain and Abel. I find it interesting that the Bible Writers were able to condense this story into merely 15 verses, considering that it is the example of the first time that a human murders another human. There are, though, gaping problems in this story.


Let's begin at Genesis 4: 1-2. Now then, Adam and Eve "know" eachother, and have 2 children; Cain and Abel. Abel is the shepherd, and Cain takes care of the ground and such.

Now let's go to Genesis 4: 3-6. Cain and Abel each bring offerings... while we're on the subject I don't get offerings really. I mean, God created the world and everything in it, so what can you possibly offer him? It's not as if you can give him something that he can't have anyway? Why make people go through the trouble, God?

Just as you give those you love gifts, so we give to God from what He has given us. I believe you'd have to start earlier in the bible to understand bringing offerings to God.

Anyhow, Cain gives Yahweh fruit from the ground, and Abel gives an offering of his flock. Yahweh likes Abel's offering, but doesn't like Cain's. I never really understand why though...

I personally don't know the reason, but I know the taught reason, that Cain gave the seconds where Abel gave the firstfruits. Can't explain it all, again, need go back to Genesis or study Abraham more to understand.

I mean is it really fair? It's not as if Cain had ACCESS to any sheep or animal that he could kill for Yahweh, so why not let Cain give the thing he can get easily? But NO, apparently fruit isn't good enough for Yahweh. So Cain is depressed because Yahweh won't accept his offering. I would be too, considering that he certainly couldn't have known what it was that Yahweh wanted, so is it really just for Yahweh to look down on him and his offering?

Back to Abraham to understand this more. Im not studied in this.
At any rate, Cain, in a fit of jealousy kills his brother, and when Yahweh sees Cain, Yahweh asks where Abel is. Now this is slightly odd considering that Yahweh is supposed to be all knowing, but let's assume that Yahweh is filling in the role of the "coy parent" here.

God of course does know exactly what happened and where Cain is.

Yahweh then says that Abel's blood cries out to him from the ground.

This is a truth. Blood cries out to God somehow perhaps not literally but perhaps in knowing someone was killed. The bible says the life is in the blood.

Now of course, this is impossible, but let's just assume that this is " Yahweh speak" for "I know you killed your brother." Yahweh then punishes Cain by "cursing him from the Earth which has opened it's mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hands", I'm not quite sure what they means exactly... then he says "When you till the ground, it shall no longer yield it's strength to you." Which I suppose means that Cain now has to work in order to find food.

too late for me to look up this verse, but if it indeed says shall no longer yield its strength to you, it means that you will toil and produce little when working the land.

I really don't see it as a big deal, unless of course God was making the fruit magically grow or something.

Everything we eat and have in our homes and in this world comes through God. It's a miracle food is, we take it for granted, for God blesses all. Though man works the field, it is God that created certain seeds and such to create certain foods. It's indeed a miracle.

I don't really get the punishment. The guy gets to leave his parents, go find a wife, and... what? What's going on here? Cain broke one of the 10 Commandment, and he doesn't exactly get an awful punishment.

Obviously to Cain it wasn't good, so it was a corrective action taken.

There's something else odd here too. Yahweh puts a mark on Cain so that nobody would harm him, this is odd because Adam. Eve, Cain, and Yahweh are supposedly the only people on the planet, and then this "Nod" place magically appears out of nowhere. Where did it come from? It is never said in the Bible that God created anybody but Adam and Eve. So where did all these other people come from? Ok, that's all I have for now.

Adam and Eve had more children. We don't know the years, but all children are descendent from Adam and Eve. I don't understand the mark, but many speculate as to what it is and the significance of it. But somehow God protected him as he cast him away from his parents.

If the bible gave exhaustive knowledge on all matters of course it would be wonderful, but we only have what we have.

 

[Rafael]

I think Adam and Eve would have had super DNA. It was the first and the strongest where Cain more than likely married one of his sisters in time - one of the many children of Adam and Eve in the long life span enjoyed by the first couple. Adam lived 930 years. I have always thought that man has probably devolved from Adam into the man we have today that shows the degredation and ill effects of death over time.

 

[childofGod31]

I think Genesis is an outline of a human kind's story, not the book with all the details. The Bible, (when listing the kids born) sometimes skips some of kids and doesn't list them (maybe they were unimportant, maybe they were girls, or some other reason).

During Genesis time, genetic line was still pure, and brothers and sisters were allowed to get married. So if Cain had a sister, he married her. And people were born every 9 months (or maybe less months, we don't know the birth process during that time because people used to live for 800-900 years, not like now).

God definitely knew that Cain had killed his brother. He was just testing Cain when he asked him.

Re: the offering - God is a deity, he is not just a pal. We have to worship Him. We also cannot stand in the presence of the Holy God without first the ritual of cleansing because we are sinful. (It's only after Christ came that He opened the way for us into the Holy of Holies because he spiritually cleansed us once and for all).

The offering must have been a way of worshipping or cleansing (there are different kinds). It's possible that God has instructed Adam and Adam instructed his sons on the guidelines of bringing offerings. And Cain didn't do it right. Sacrificing an animal was a symbol of Christ's death. Sacrificing fruit would have been a mockery of that symbol.

If you like to live in one place, it would be a hard punishment to become a restless wanderer because the earth isn't growing food for you as it should.

Cain was jealous because Abel was good and Cain wasn't. Imagine 2 brothers, one always gets in trouble and the other one is the delight of the parents. The first one would be jealous.

 

[heron]

There is no place in the passage that God asks for a sacrifice. There is no place that He rejects the sacrifice. Both guys offered a gift, and Cain was jealous that God was more demonstrative about Abel's.

God warned Cain that his jealousy could get the best of him, and it did.


Cain and Abel
(punctuation added)

Came Qayin fruit soil donation Jehovah
Hebel went gather self (/same/that/as/are) firstborn flock fat (or migrate)
Gazed at (in amazement, shock, compassion) the Eternal toward Hebel, toward donation.
Toward Qayin, toward donation not look amazed.
Heated Qayin vehemently fall the face.
Say Jehovah to Qayin, What heated/angered? What fall your face?
Not if made well/beautiful/sound elevation;
If not make well/beautiful/sound,
opening offense crouches.


(words and definitions from Lexicons and Strong's definitions)

 

[izarya]

What's even more perplexing is that an examination of the passage suggests that the idea of bringing the
sacrifice to God originated with Cain, not Abel. "Cain brought an offering and Abel 'also' brought one."

The name for Abel in Hebrew comes from the word Hevel, which means "air" or "nothing." In comparison with Cain, who was an original thinker, Abel was a lightweight.

In fact while God accepted Abel's offering, it was to Cain rather than Abel that God chose to speak.
How then can we understand Cain? Why bring a sacrifice in the first place unless you intend to offer your best? If you are not prepared to bring something of value, who asked you to bring one in the first place?
Why go out of your way to insult God? After all, what
is the purpose of offering God a sacrifice? He clearly doesn't need the gift.

The sacrifice expresses your gratitude to God for all the goodness/substance He has provided you, as well as providing symbolic acknowledgement of God as the creator and the source of all bounty. It isn't the gift that is significant, but the symbolic act of
acknowledgement.

Indeed, one could even argue that to offer something really expensive smacks of presumption. God clearly doesn't need man's puny gift. Thinking all this out, Cain decided to bring an offering, but deliberately chose something insignificant so that no one could possibly
think that he was so presumptuous as to think that God actually needed his present.

Abel, who was merely following Cain's lead, and didn't think the matter through as thoroughly, obviously reasoned that if offering sacrifices was a good thing, than the better the gift the more worthy the sacrifice. Surely, it was Abel who misunderstood!

Why did God then reject Cain's sacrifice?

The answer to this question is fundamental to understanding Divine service. The discovery of Cain's mistake will also explain why we modern people can't relate to the Book of Leviticus.

Cain did the sensible thing if we assume that the object of bringing sacrifices to God is contained in the offering itself. In terms of giving God gifts, Cain was certainly correct. Surely the less the better is the correct maxim.

But if the point of presenting offerings to God is not in the gifts, but rather the offering of oneself to God through the medium of the gifts, you have to do what Abel did, and offer something that is meaningful to yourself. You cannot sacrifice the self without engaging
in an act that requires self-sacrifice.

Thus the first conclusion -- the idea of offerings to God is sacrificing yourself to God.

Re the others: Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were the first Human Beings, Adam was (I believe) the first Learned Man.