The book that the "Passion" was based on

[Trish1947]

I have a question. And please dont take this as an affront. Some are touchy when asked this question, but I would like it answered. Since the Jews did take their part in the death of Jesus, as well as the Romans, as well as the sinner, why are the Jews so offended by the possiblity that they did take part? Did not God have this in his plan and someone had to carry it out for prophacy to be fulfilled? I feel guilty as a sinner for His death. Is it not written that when Jesus appears again, that the tribes will look on him who they have pierced, then shall the tribes of the earth mourn. Is not this the Jews? Will they not acknowledge their part until they see him face to face? It is quit confusing to me. I must accept my responsiblilty in His death as a sinner, or I'm not being up front with my God.

 

[Higher Truth]

From the Catholic encyclopedia:

Catherine Emmerich has likewise given expression to false or unlikely opinions: she regards the writings of the pseudo-Dionysius as due to the Areopagite, and says strange things about the terrestrial Paradise, which, according to her, exists on an inaccessible Mountain towards Tibet. If there be question of the general statement of facts given in these works, we can admit with probability that many of them are true. For these two visionaries led lives that were regarded as very holy. *** Competent authorities have judged their ecstasies as divine.*** It is therefore prudent to admit that they received a special assistance from God, preserving them not absolutely, but in the main, from error.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13005a.htm


Catholic Books on Our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth


THE DOLOROUS PASSION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST FROM THE VISIONS OF Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich Faithful to the Bible story of the Passion and death of Jesus, it fills in many details and is edifying and inspiring beyond belief; plus, it is surprising and heart-rending. It will melt a heart of stone. This book is the best on the Passion we have seen. It is also wonderful on the Blessed Mother's role in our redemption. Includes a short biography of Sr. Emmerich. A great, great book for the whole family! Only $18.50 Ordering Information


THE HOLY SHROUD AND FOUR VISIONS By Rev. Patrick O'Connell & Rev. C. M. Carty A fascinating study of the Winding Sheet Our Lord was wrapped in (now in Turin, Italy) with a comparison from the visions of four famous mystics: St. Bridget of Sweden, Ven. Mary of Agreda, Ven. Anne Catherine Emmerich and Therese Neumann. Most moving.

*

THE LIFE OF CHRIST AND BIBLICAL REVELATIONS By Anne Catherine Emmerich Incredible revelations about the beginning of the world, events from the Old and New Testaments, plus the background and early life of Mary and Jesus--all from the visions of this famous mystic. Covers the 3-year public life of Our Lord, with many events not mentioned in Scripture. Also, the early life of the Catholic Church--alone worth the price of the book. Incredible facts about Our Lord, His ancestry, His work, and the early Church. A now famous book and a spiritual classic beloved by many.

*

THE MAGNIFICENT PRAYERS 15 famous, inspiring and powerful prayers composed by St. Bridget of Sweden after her visions of the Passion and death of Jesus.



REVELATIONS OF ST. BRIDGET on the Life and Passion of Our Lord and the Life of His Blessed Mother Excerpts from her revelations. Actual words of Our Lord and Blessed Mother to St. Bridget of Sweden, giving intimate details of their lives on earth, including the hidden life of Our Lord and Our Lady in Nazareth, plus the early life of Our Lady and the birth of Our Lord. Includes the famous 15 Prayers of St. Bridget. First published in 1492. Breathes the spirit of holiness and faith. Excellent on the Passion. A classic of the Church, a perennial bestseller and a real treasure!



*http://www.marianland.com/ourlord.html


THE LIFE OF CHRIST AND BIBLICAL REVELATIONS
of Anne Catherine Emmerich

Pp. 4 Vols. Hardbound. Impr. Incredible revelations about the beginning of the world, events from the Old and New Testaments, plus the background and early life of Mary and Jesus-all from the visions of this famous mystic. Covers the 3-year public life of Our Lord, with many events not mentioned in Scripture. Also, the early life of the Catholic Church-alone worth the price of the book.
** Incredible facts about Our Lord ***, His ancestry, His work, and the early Church. A now famous book and a spiritual classic beloved by many.


*

 

[ShirChadash]

Trish, I'll venture an opinion...


The Jews know full well the part *some* Jews played in Yeshua's death. It's the rest of the world that has underestimated OUR OWN part as individual sinners. The desire of Jews to "back away" from being identified with the crucifixion now, as you may be seeing in response to this movie, is quite simply due to 2 millenia of anti-semitism and hatred, persecution, being known as "Christ-killers" and guilty of "Deicide" (killing God, as if such a thing were possible). Throughout very nearly the entirety of the past 2000 years, blame for Yeshua's death was placed SQUARELY on the shoulders of "The Jews"... and as I said in another thread... when have you ever seen anyone (let alone, entire groups of likeminded people) persecute all Romans for the part their people played in Yeshua's death? When have any other individuals in history been hunted down and murdered because *some* of their ancestors played a part in Yeshua's death?

"Passion plays/narratives" have historically enflamed people against the Jews, and resulted in incidents of backlash and persecution... and they have a natural fear that it will happen again, in response to this movie in which Yeshua death is horrifically, brutally acted out in a manner that seems to affect people extremely emotionally.

Please see my posts and others', in these threads, for discussion on this topic and for links:
http://www.christianforums.com/t95268
http://www.christianforums.com/t96315
http://www.christianforums.com/t93617&page=3

And another link or two for you Trish... I try not to give these out often... but if you really want a taste of why many Jews would be worried about being associated with the death of Messiah (Who CHOSE His death, let's remember) and how Jews have been mischaracterized (to say the least)...


http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/story14.htm
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/story18.htm
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/thumb.htm

I don't think most people realize the degree to which anti-Jew propaganda was once common-place and the persecution was very real (and still is). Mel Gibson said it right, when he replied to Diane Sawyer something to the tune of, "Well, Hitler was a maniac, wasn't he?" But he fails to care that maniacs, who already hate G-d's chosen people, are still in the world.


Nachamu Ami (Isaiah 40:1-2)

Nachamu, nachamu ami
Nachamu, nachamu ami
Dab'ru al lev Yerushalayim
ki-ru eleyha ki malah tziva'ah
ki nirtzah avonah
ki lak-cha miyad Adonai
kiflayim bkhol-khatoteyha
Nachamu, nachamu ami

Comfort my people
Comfort my people
Speak tender words to Jerusalem
This is what you shall say to them:
Your hard work has been done
Your atonement is won
You've received from My Hand twice for all you've done
Comfort my people

Steve and Sue McConnell

 

[Trish1947]

ZemirahTrish, I'll venture an opinion...


The Jews know full well the part *some* Jews played in Yeshua's death. It's the rest of the world that has underestimated OUR OWN part as individual sinners

Thank you Zemirah, I have a better understanding now. Also when I said Jews took part also, I didn't mean "all". But it was the religious "elete" that felt threatened. And I am real sorry that the Jews have to live with this apprehension in their hearts because of the past, and human nature, and the devil. But you know, Christians are starting to feel this same "evil in the wind" over Christianity also.

 

[Mordechai18]

Very well put, Zemirah. Thank you also for the links.

 

[Rafael]

There was one thing that is not accurate in the film, but most Christians wouldn't notice. Caiaphas knew who Jesus was:

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

When Caiaphas torn his priestly garment in the film, it was not in anger but in abdicating the priesthood. The priests garment was double seamed and ripping it was a show of quitting.
Jesus garment was without seam:

John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

The priests garments were four parts too, and the transfer of the priesthood to Jesus was completed by three oclock when the laughtering of the lambs was to begin. It fits in with the book of Hebrews and how Jesus is our high priest today.

This wasn't shown in the Passion movie correctly, but I still liked the movie and don't believe it anti-semitic. From the verses in John, it seems to tell us that they knew Jesus had to die because of prophecy and carried it out because they knew.....or at least Caiaphas did, and the only way Jesus could be killed was to accuse Him of blasphemy.

 

[Trish1947]

rapheThere was one thing that is not accurate in the film, but most Christians wouldn't notice. Caiaphas knew who Jesus was:

John 11:49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

raphe... I'm glad that I came back and read this post. It explains so much about my question. Do you think that the suffering of Jesus was over done in the movie? I read in Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonished at thee: his visage was was so marred more than any man and his form more than the sons of men; So shall he sprinkle many nations the kings shall shut their mouths at him; for that which had not been told them shall they see.

 

[Mordechai18]

When Caiaphas torn his priestly garment in the film, it was not in anger but in abdicating the priesthood. The priests garment was double seamed and ripping it was a show of quitting.

This is an interesting concept. Do you have a source for this?

 

[simchat_torah]

Mordechai,

You might notice that I started a new thread based soley on this quote.

I personally hold to it that there is no basis for the above claim.

shalom!
yafet

 

[Rafael]

raphe... I'm glad that I came back and read this post. It explains so much about my question. Do you think that the suffering of Jesus was over done in the movie? I read in Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonished at thee: his visage was was so marred more than any man and his form more than the sons of men; So shall he sprinkle many nations the kings shall shut their mouths at him; for that which had not been told them shall they see.

No, I think that God intended that the whole black horrible balance of the world's sin was poured on His body, and that thescripture in Isaiah is true. I still cannot believe another human being would do what was done that day, but the Son knew, His mother knew, and even the Jewish hiearchy understood what was to happen that day (at least Caiaphas told them in the scripture).
I was shocked to find this scripture when re-examining the accounts after seeing the movie. This would say that the Caiaphas was not an evil person at all and didn't have Jesus killed because He was jealous of Jesus, but fulfilled prophecy because He knew the scriptures and recognized Messiah..

 

[Rafael]

This is an interesting concept. Do you have a source for this?

Just the scriptures I gave and what little knowledge of Jewish implementation of the rites of high priest I have from my studies. Do you find it interesting that the Spirit of God would include the fact that the garment without seam that belonged to Jesus was not ripped but kept whole? In the movie, Caiaphas made a big display of ripping his priestly garment which has special significance in the threading, and I will try and find the links I had to confirm this as the internet has lots of info, that I've gone through. From what I gathered, the ripping of the priestly garment in such a way had special significance and I was hoping to get more information here with the post, as I'm interested in picking up more knowledge, myself, to the meaning of this. I am always amazed at the rich heritage of the Jews and the sacrifice made that day. It is far deeper and rich in meaning than people know. Each minute and point given in scripture has deep meaning and fulfillment of scripture for that passover event.

 

[ILY]

Shalom all

I have to say this is a fantastic thread, believe it or not.

I haven't had time to see the movie yet, and I have heard some opinions from various followers of Y'shua.
Although there is considerable disagreement on this thread, it is beautifully done, and I would venture to say to discuss as you have.

First HT, I read the link you had at the start, titled an interesting Christian link etc...and I see your point, and can appreciate very much that you, and I believe everyone, wanted the movie to be entirely Scriptural.Of course it's not from the reviews here and elsewhere.

Then enter P4I,
That gal (no offense intended) ain't going to back down!!! To top it off she then adds some fine points to the matter that put one back on the upswing of wanting to see the movie.

Of course simchat_torah, obviousley is not one to back down easily either. He made some fine points, as did Zemirah, Trish1947, of course Mordechai18 makes a cameo appearance as well.

That said, I can say good job all, both in keeping it respectful, and enlightening.

I hope to see the movie soon, and will add my 2 cents at that time.When it came out I knew it would have a heavy lean towards Cataholic views/traditions etc...
I too hope it doesn't stray outside the Scriptures and portray a different Y'shua, and I have seen HT's comments on the direct influences etc...but having a descent knowledge of the Scriptures, I feel I will be able to know fact from assumed.Either way one has to applaud Mel for having the courage to show this portion, which is indeed risky to his career, and as already noted by some, we should pray for him, and await for the shocker when he sees us that are outside the Catholic church, with Y'shua and the Heavenly hosts etc...

Keep up the good work, and don't just accept anything that is thrown our way.I think discussing it only makes us wiser.

Keep up the Passion <><

Shalom v shalom
ILY

 

[Mordechai18]

Just the scriptures I gave and what little knowledge of Jewish implementation of the rites of high priest I have from my studies. Do you find it interesting that the Spirit of God would include the fact that the garment without seam that belonged to Jesus was not ripped but kept whole? In the movie, Caiaphas made a big display of ripping his priestly garment which has special significance in the threading, and I will try and find the links I had to confirm this as the internet has lots of info, that I've gone through. From what I gathered, the ripping of the priestly garment in such a way had special significance and I was hoping to get more information here with the post, as I'm interested in picking up more knowledge, myself, to the meaning of this. I am always amazed at the rich heritage of the Jews and the sacrifice made that day. It is far deeper and rich in meaning than people know. Each minute and point given in scripture has deep meaning and fulfillment of scripture for that passover event.

Ripping a garment is something that Jews do in mourning, even today we wear something torn when a family member dies. It seemed in the film that Caiaphas rent his garment at the sacrilege he witnessed when Yeshua (all but) proclaimed himself G-d.