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The book of life and Calvinism

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BibleBeliever1611, May 16, 2022.

  1. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Active Member

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    The Bible often teaches that someone's name can be blotted out of the book of life. How does that make sense in Calvinist theology?

    Calvinism teaches that God has decided who will be saved based on his own will. So why would someone's name be written in the book of life (and then be blotted out) if that person is not part of the elect and never was to begin with?
     
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  2. roman2819

    roman2819 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Calvinism came from wrong interpretation of Scriptures. People zoomed in on the words "predestined" to mean God chose to save individuals. Now let us interpret 70 verses in Ephesians chapter 1 to 3, taking context into consideration:.

    Ephesians 1 :1 To God’s holy people in Ephesus, .... (v4) For He chose us in him before the creation of the world ... In love (v5) He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ,... (v11) In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him .... (v12)in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ... Meaning = "We" and "us" refer to the Jewish Christians . Jews who confessed their sins were first to be saved in Jesus

    13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth... ch 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised”... 12 you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise...
    = Clearly, "you who are Gentiles" clearly means Paul was referring to Gentile Christians. "You" does NOT mean individuals. Paul explained that formerly, Gentiles were excluded from God

    Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus you... have been brought near by the blood of Christ...:14 For He ...has made the two groups one... 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations = but now Gentiles can be saved if they confessed their sins because Jesus' atonement has abolished the need to fulfill the Law (such as circumcision and OT laws)

    15: His purpose was to create... one new humanity out of the two... and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross... 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit... .. Chapter 3:16 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus...”
    = Both Jews and Gentiles have same access to God -- anyone who confessed their sins to Jesus can be saved. The mystery (Eph 3:16) is that when God reached out to Jews first, He had (unknown to anyone) planned ahead to offer salvation to the Gentiles too.

    So what is predestination? It is just a word that refers to how God planned it all ahead to offer salvation to the Jews and then to Gentiles. In context, therefore, predestination does NOT mean God choose to save individuals. There is no discussion of individual predestination in Ephesians or Scripture. But unfortunately, some people focus on 3 words "He predestine us" and believe the idea of individual predestination.

    In Book of People , Acts and others, there are verses that say "God choose us". During biblical times, people don't say they chose to believe in God. Instead they said God chose them -- this is out of humility. In ancient times, people on earth -- Jews, Persians, Babylonians, Chinese -- were more humble towards God and heaven. So to say they are chosen by God is a figure of speech. Such linguistic elements have been lost over time. When interpreting Bible, we have to appreciate how words were used in different times, culture and context.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
  3. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

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    The answer you are likely to receive is that the person was never truly saved, they just thought they were saved. Now that makes the promise of OSAS useless and contributes to the insecurity of those people who doubt their salvation. It also makes it appear that we need to do something to secure salvation when in fact all that is required is faith in Jesus and what He did.
     
  4. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    I believe that the book of life starts with all of our names in it. Love hopes all things. It is as if God is saying, "I believe you can make it".

    But some choose to not retain the knowledge of God, they don't want God as He is, and they make their own versions of who God is.

    Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

    Although God is merciful:

    Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

    There comes a point where a person so desires sin over God, that they are blotted out of the book.

    2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    Exo 32:33 And the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
     
  5. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Well-Known Member

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    Which verses you are referring to? I only remember exodus 32:32 'But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.”

    In this context Moses asks God to let him die rather than live and see Israel being destroyed for their disobedience.

    I don't think that this is the book of live where the names of all of the believers are recorded, rather it refers to a different book of live (psalm 69:28) - sort of like a register of living men.

    There's big debate in Christianity whether salvation is predestined, or we can accept or chose God, whether Christ died for all or just the believers.

    I say predestination because there is nothing we can do to save our-selves, there is nothing we can do as we are all sinners, and our heart are evil, and we are spiritually dead i.e. we have no connection to God. Romans 3 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” Our sinful hearts are like a stone that do not recognize Jesus, our eyes are blind that do not see Him, our ears are deaf we do not hear Him. He was amongst us, done miracles only God could do, the prophets spoke about Him, the whole Old Testament was about Him, He raised dead, gave sight to blind....and lastly and more importantly, the Father testified of Him, but many not heard because they were spiritually deaf. All the miracles Jesus did, many knew He was Messiah but they were evil, because they were the children of satan (John 8:40) like we all are while we are in sin, but Jesus adopted some us out of grace. And if there is nothing we can do about salvation, what does it matter when God choses to save us? God has to pour the Holy Spirit in us, give us new living hearts that love Him, eyes that see and ears that hear.
     
  6. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    Yes, the point is that God, alone, knows with 100% certainty who the elect are.
     
  7. roman2819

    roman2819 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Post #2 explain that there is no biblical context for individual predestination of salvation. If there is, Jesus or the apostles would have spoken about it substantially, and you won't have to use random verses out of context .

    Consider this verse ACTS 16:31 where Peter said to the prison guard: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.

    Does this means that parents can pray for their children, and in turn they will be saved? The answer is No. But those who read words only and ignore the rest of the Scripture will insist this verse means parent can pray for children's salvation and family will be saved.

    What about John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    John 3:16 didn't say you have to repent and confess sins to Jesus to be saved. So does it mean that believing is Jesus' existence is sufficient? The answer is No. In the context of the bible, one has to repent and confess sins.

    Individual predestination idea comes quoting verse out of context
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2022
  8. roman2819

    roman2819 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What about ACTS 16:31 where Peter said to the prison guard: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.
    Does this means that parents can pray for their children, and in turn they will be saved? The answer is No. But those who read words only and ignore the rest of the Scripture will insist this verse means parent can pray for children's salvation and family will be saved.

    What about John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    John 3:16 didn't say you have to repent and confess sins to Jesus to be saved. So does it mean that believing is Jesus' existence is sufficient? The answer is No. In the context of the bible, one has to repent and confess sins.

    By ignoring context, you can invent any theory.
     
  9. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    I have been looking into the idea of Predestination, and I can see the argument for it. But the argument for grace given to all makes more sense, let’s look at a case study of Cain.


    In the NT it was said:


    1 Jn 3:12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.


    Predestination would say Cain was destined to destruction, that he had no hope. But that is not what God said to Cain, and you have to realize God is no Lier, he told Cain:


    Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.


    Cain could have received salvation if he did what was right.


    As Jesus said, of people to whom God does reveal Himself:


    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


    Those who become blind are those who love unrighteousness more that godliness.


    2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
     
  10. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Well-Known Member

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    Ok so how do you explain Romans 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one. no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

    If no one is righteous and no one seeks God then how can some believe? We are all dead in sin, our heart are evil and do not recognise God, our eyes are blind and ears are deaf so even when we see the miracles we do not believe and when we hear Jesus' parables we do not understand.

    God has to give you a new fleshly heart and eyes that see and ears that hear His word...because Jesus has His sheep that hear His voice. Why do then some hear Jesus and others don't? Who gives them the ears to hear? It's all God's doing, no one just comes to God and worships Him, because we do not want to.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,....if faith is the gift of God (Galatians 5:22-23 teaches that faith is the fruit of the Holy Spirit) then no one is faithful until God gives Him faith gracefully. If God gives all of the above, then God saves alone because we all reject Him in sin then it is predestination....even if it wasn't, only God saves alone and you can do nothing about it so what does it matter when God decides to save you?
     
  11. Ivan Hlavanda

    Ivan Hlavanda Well-Known Member

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    But that's the point. Not ones of us loves God. Our hearts are sinful, the human race have fallen in Adam that's why Romans 3:10 says no one is righteous no one is good, not even one. No one seeks God Not one of us will ever chose God. And no matter what we do we can never saves our selves, either Christ paid it all on the cross or not. But because we all have sinful hearts and all are the children of the devil (John 8:40) it us only God who can save, only He can give you a new heart only He can bring you to repentance. How you ever seen anyone just come to God and repent out of nothing?
    Check post number 10 as well. If only God can give you faith then...
     
  12. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    Just because we are sinners by nature, does not mean God can not give us the light to "choose" to do right, and based upon mans response grant or deny life. See the following, that I posted elsewhere, to see how God gives this light to all men.

    The following talks about the overall plan of salvation.

    The New Testament states that:

    Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    This shows that salvation is based upon trusting in the sacrifice of Jesus to justify us, not our works, or effort. Without going into detail the bible also states that faith leads to the Holy Spirit empowering us to live close to God’s best. We are encouraged:

    Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

    I first wish to lay out a brief introduction to the method of salvation, and how salvation occurs.


    As people when we are born we have no knowledge of God, we walk in a quagmire of maybes, yet at some point in our lives God will give a person light, understanding, and knowledge, this can occur numerous times. As in Job, the rebellious believer is given chance after chance to change:

    Job 33:29-30 "Behold, God works all these things, Twice, in fact, three times with a man, To bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.


    This light, understanding, or knowledge God gives to all people.

    Joh 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

    It is how the individual responds to that light that determines if they move towards salvation, or move towards destruction.

    Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.


    What we do with the knowledge God gives us, will determine, our destiny. There are two pathways, our eyes remain open, and we follow after righteousness, or we desire sin more than God and drift into spiritual blindness. I show both of these pathways below:

    Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


    LIFE

    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    Jesus said that if a man loves God, he will attempt to live God’s way. God will open such a person’s eyes to His saving grace. Note that it is often the pure grace of God that leads to salvation, God showing His forgiveness and mercy toward the sinner. But the person then needs to live out their salvation, obeying God, they still need to keep His words.

    Joh 6:28-29 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

    DEATH

    The bible tells us that light has come to every man, but some love the darkness more than the light God reveals.

    Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

    They suppress the knowledge of God. In doing this God gives them over to a darkened heart, if people refuse repentance they will eventually become totally blind to grace, the light that God gives. If a person lives in the desires of the flesh, refusing to return to God, they will eventually perish.

    Rom 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.


    Joh 8:43-45 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.


    2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


    Man is ultimately responsible for His own salvation. As the bible says of the sinner:

    Tit 3:11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
     
  13. roman2819

    roman2819 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    However, did Paul go on to say that God choose individuals to repent? He clearly didn't. When Jesus was on earth, did he ever teach that God predestined individuals to confess their sins? There is no verses in the Bible that say anything to this effect.

    What Romans say is all have sinned and no one can be saved by their own deeds or from fulfilling the Law. The ONLY WAY for anyone to be saved is by repenting in Jesus. But Scripture does not say God choose individuals to repent.

    Consider how verses can be taken out of context:

    ACTS 16:31 where Peter said to the prison guard: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.
    Does this means that parents can pray for their children, and in turn they will be saved? The answer is No. But those who read words only and ignore the rest of the Scripture will insist it can be done.

    John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    It didn't say you have to repent and confess sins to Jesus to be saved. So does it mean that believing is Jesus' existence is sufficient? The answer is No. In the context of the bible, one has to repent and confess sins.

    I believe you have read Post #2 in this thread where i explained Ephesians chapter 1 to 3 in context.
     
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