The Book of Enoch (for discussion)

[GuardianShua]

And I agree...a revelation from God is needed...I believe there is lots revealed in Enoch...I call it spiritual armor...interesting the view of Enoch perhaps being a witness...like he was in the days of Noah...judgement upon the decievers et al.

The Book of Enoch states that it is a parable. So in other words, Enoch is not Enoch, but the unknown prophet speaking.

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

Indeed...and so true...most would change nothing...most have become so complacent, self-focused, and caught up in the "norms" of their world...they don't want anything to shatter their illusion...but I care...especially if it will help others break free from the delusion...what is happening in our current world culture is certainly a truth I would rather run away from, too horrible for me to comprehend, stared me down and changed my entire view of the world, and my life...finding the truth through reading lots of history and sifting through all the disinformation regarding the origins of God and religion...well for me, anyway, Enoch brings, in a sense, spiritual armour that can help make sense in the chaos we see around us...and protect us from these beings because we know who they are and won't be fooled by them...and maybe...just maybe help others realize the deception too...

I pray that God helps you and protects you always from such deceptions, and that if you find yourself face to face with such things (if you haven't already), that you have the armour, weaponry, and faith to triumph.

And I agree...a revelation from God is needed...I believe there is lots revealed in Enoch...I call it spiritual armor...interesting the view of Enoch perhaps being a witness...like he was in the days of Noah...judgement upon the decievers et al.

Indeed ...

 

[spitoutthekoolaid]

Weren't the giants said to be some sort of supernatural beings- that is, a result of the union between angels and the children of men?

That's one interpretation.

And even if we permit it, we'd still have to deal with a physical creature that defies the laws of physics.

For me, at the end of the day, it's all kind of moot anyway. I don't believe there were ever angel-human hybrids or giants, and I don't believe Scripture teaches this or that it is a reasonable position to adhere to.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not speaking to the "450 foot tall humanoid" aspect, rather, the "hybrid" aspect ... especially if we consider a "spiritual hybrid."

* Jesus physical body, was the result of the Holy Spirit and a human.
* Jesus' physical body was capable of "transfiguring" (metamorphoses I believe) and the effects were seen physically.
* Moses body reflected a physical glow when he was in the presence of the Lord, to where he placed a veil over his face when this glow was there and he spoke to the Israelites
* Isaac was born via the power of the Spirit (Galatians). Specifically, in Genesis 18, we see that the return of the LORD (or one of the two beings with the LORD(Yahweh)) would facilitate the pregnancy of Sarah. In other words, it wasn't just Abraham having sex with Sarah that resulted in Isaac. It was the return of one of the three beings (perhaps the LORD/Yahweh) that was going to cause Sarah to conceive. So what does that make Isaac ?
* Furthermore, humans are capable of being translated (taken away by the Spirit of the Lord, "teleportation" style) without ill effect to their physical bodies, and placed in a different location, perhaps at faster-than-light speeds.
* Paul speaks of a man caught up to a part of heaven either in the body, or out of the body.
* There are believers who have received the Holy Spirit, and those who haven't, thus ... not all people have the Holy Spirit.

In other words ... there is biology and understood physics, then there is the effect that spirit has on the human body and how this manifests, even as it concerns procreation and producing more people. Thus, not all humans might be considered "purely human", spiritually speaking, either before or after they are born, depending on the nature of the spirit within them.

So when I consider the idea that angels mated with humans, *how* that was accomplished becomes an important question I think, and we already have scripture and commonly accepted beliefs and doctrines amongst denominations that allow for "hybrids". "Born again Christians" for example, might could consider themself a "hybrid". A new creation. Furthermore, there are those who have experienced "abnormal" physics on the human body and survived.

So the questions involved with fallen-angel-human-hybrids speaks to the way ungodly spirits, or spirits that choose to violate human's physically, might effect a person physically, and how this might manifest. And furthermore, what that person might be capable of. Fallen spirits can dwell within people, and animals (Legion for example), so what about producing "fallen offspring" that have within them fallen spirits ?

The Book of Enoch states that it is a parable. So in other words, Enoch is not Enoch, but the unknown prophet speaking.

This is interesting. I almost said previously that the Book of Enoch was perhaps "inspired by the spirit of Enoch" if you chose to accept it as such, but chose not to. We see in scripture things like "the spirit and power of Elijah", or that Caleb had a "different spirit" for example. I've wondered if the spirit of those who were taken and did not taste death, for example, can still influence others in some fashion. We see Saul calling upon the witch of Endor to summon the spirit of Samuel, who had died ... however Elijah and Enoch did not die apparently. And John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah, but was not *Elijah*. Nor was Elisha, who sought to receive a double portion of Elijah's spirit. So these men were not "Eiijah", however, were somehow linked to the "spirit of Elijah", whatever that means.

As a related, but side note, I've sometimes viewed those who lean towards John, or Paul, or Peter for example, as being "Pauline in spirit", "a spiritual Israelite", etc and so forth. Not that they are possessed by Paul or something lol, just that they are influenced by Paul and the way the Spirit used Paul (for example). Which perhaps speaks to the question as what *spirit* inspired the Enochian account, or the writer(s) of the Book of Enoch ...

 

[Jipsah]

I do admit, I find it a bit hard to believe that. However, how do you know there were no beings of that stature before the great flood?

Where are the fossils?

Do you have any biblical evidence to suggest that the book of Enoch is not inspired by God?

Do you have any Biblical evidence that "The Cat In The Hat" isn't inspired by God? C'mon, the old "Oh yeah, prove it ain't!" schtick is exceedingly lame. I mean, prove that whales don't speak French at the bottom of the sea when no one is listening, prove that I'm not rightwise born king of all England, prove that Davy Crocket couldn't grin the bark off a tree, ad infinitum. The trick is that there's as little evidence that there were ever 450 foot tall giants as there is that Davy Crocket could grin the bark off a tree. And since neither is possible in the world as we know it, then the burden of proof rests on those who believe those things to be true rather than those who are (rightly) skeptical.

Enoch reads like fantasy, not like Scripture. It's replete with fantastic characters in fantastic situations. No, I can't prove that it isn't true, but that sure ain't the way to bet, is it? The bogus attribution attached to it doesn't help its credibility either, does it?

 

[Jipsah]

It was the Catholic Church at some point decided the people should not read the book of Enoch.

So the Catholic Church somehow persuaded the Jews not to include Enoch in he Jewish canon? Dang, those rascally Romanists are up to no good again!

Or maybe it was just because pretty much nobody believed that "Enoch" was inspired by God, or even true. Nah, that can't be it. Musta been a conspiracy.

 

[GuardianShua]

I'm not speaking to the "450 foot tall humanoid" aspect, rather, the "hybrid" aspect ... especially if we consider a "spiritual hybrid."

* Jesus physical body, was the result of the Holy Spirit and a human.
* Jesus' physical body was capable of "transfiguring" (metamorphoses I believe) and the effects were seen physically.
* Moses body reflected a physical glow when he was in the presence of the Lord, to where he placed a veil over his face when this glow was there and he spoke to the Israelites
* Isaac was born via the power of the Spirit (Galatians). Specifically, in Genesis 18, we see that the return of the LORD (or one of the two beings with the LORD(Yahweh)) would facilitate the pregnancy of Sarah. In other words, it wasn't just Abraham having sex with Sarah that resulted in Isaac. It was the return of one of the three beings (perhaps the LORD/Yahweh) that was going to cause Sarah to conceive. So what does that make Isaac ?
* Furthermore, humans are capable of being translated (taken away by the Spirit of the Lord, "teleportation" style) without ill effect to their physical bodies, and placed in a different location, perhaps at faster-than-light speeds.
* Paul speaks of a man caught up to a part of heaven either in the body, or out of the body.
* There are believers who have received the Holy Spirit, and those who haven't, thus ... not all people have the Holy Spirit.

In other words ... there is biology and understood physics, then there is the effect that spirit has on the human body and how this manifests, even as it concerns procreation and producing more people. Thus, not all humans might be considered "purely human", spiritually speaking, either before or after they are born, depending on the nature of the spirit within them.

So when I consider the idea that angels mated with humans, *how* that was accomplished becomes an important question I think, and we already have scripture and commonly accepted beliefs and doctrines amongst denominations that allow for "hybrids". "Born again Christians" for example, might could consider themself a "hybrid". A new creation. Furthermore, there are those who have experienced "abnormal" physics on the human body and survived.

So the questions involved with fallen-angel-human-hybrids speaks to the way ungodly spirits, or spirits that choose to violate human's physically, might effect a person physically, and how this might manifest. And furthermore, what that person might be capable of. Fallen spirits can dwell within people, and animals (Legion for example), so what about producing "fallen offspring" that have within them fallen spirits ?

This is interesting. I almost said previously that the Book of Enoch was perhaps "inspired by the spirit of Enoch" if you chose to accept it as such, but chose not to. We see in scripture things like "the spirit and power of Elijah", or that Caleb had a "different spirit" for example. I've wondered if the spirit of those who were taken and did not taste death, for example, can still influence others in some fashion. We see Saul calling upon the witch of Endor to summon the spirit of Samuel, who had died ... however Elijah and Enoch did not die apparently. And John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah, but was not *Elijah*. Nor was Elisha, who sought to receive a double portion of Elijah's spirit. So these men were not "Eiijah", however, were somehow linked to the "spirit of Elijah", whatever that means.

As a related, but side note, I've sometimes viewed those who lean towards John, or Paul, or Peter for example, as being "Pauline in spirit", "a spiritual Israelite", etc and so forth. Not that they are possessed by Paul or something lol, just that they are influenced by Paul and the way the Spirit used Paul (for example). Which perhaps speaks to the question as what *spirit* inspired the Enochian account, or the writer(s) of the Book of Enoch ...

Something to think about is the name Elijah, it means, "God is Yah." Yah is the first name of God. Yahwah means "Life Began." His name backwards Hawhay means "Foundation of life." For some reason Yah and Hay both mean life or living in ancient Hebrew. I think the word Yah may have come from a different language. (Hay, Hey, Chay, Chai = Life / Living)

 

[GuardianShua]

So the Catholic Church somehow persuaded the Jews not to include Enoch in he Jewish canon? Dang, those rascally Romanists are up to no good again!

Or maybe it was just because pretty much nobody believed that "Enoch" was inspired by God, or even true. Nah, that can't be it. Musta been a conspiracy.

The book of Enoch comes from the Essenes, not Orthodox Judaism. In 167 BC the Hellenist kicked the original temple priest and their families out of Jerusalem. They are the one who became the Essenes.

 

[Lion King]

Where are the fossils?

..probably returned to dust or something. These creatures were an abomination to the LORD.

Who knows what the LORD did with their bodies?

Do you have any Biblical evidence that "The Cat In The Hat" isn't inspired by God? C'mon, the old "Oh yeah, prove it ain't!" schtick is exceedingly lame. I mean, prove that whales don't speak French at the bottom of the sea when no one is listening, prove that I'm not rightwise born king of all England, prove that Davy Crocket couldn't grin the bark off a tree, ad infinitum. The trick is that there's as little evidence that there were ever 450 foot tall giants as there is that Davy Crocket could grin the bark off a tree. And since neither is possible in the world as we know it, then the burden of proof rests on those who believe those things to be true rather than those who are (rightly) skeptical.

Enoch reads like fantasy, not like Scripture. It's replete with fantastic characters in fantastic situations. No, I can't prove that it isn't true, but that sure ain't the way to bet, is it? The bogus attribution attached to it doesn't help its credibility either, does it?

Anyway, the Scriptures do talk about giants (though only descendants) existing, even during the time of Moses:

But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.” And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.” Numbers 13:31-33

 

[true2theword]

Where are the fossils?

Do you have any Biblical evidence that "The Cat In The Hat" isn't inspired by God? C'mon, the old "Oh yeah, prove it ain't!" schtick is exceedingly lame. I mean, prove that whales don't speak French at the bottom of the sea when no one is listening, prove that I'm not rightwise born king of all England, prove that Davy Crocket couldn't grin the bark off a tree, ad infinitum. The trick is that there's as little evidence that there were ever 450 foot tall giants as there is that Davy Crocket could grin the bark off a tree. And since neither is possible in the world as we know it, then the burden of proof rests on those who believe those things to be true rather than those who are (rightly) skeptical.

Enoch reads like fantasy, not like Scripture. It's replete with fantastic characters in fantastic situations. No, I can't prove that it isn't true, but that sure ain't the way to bet, is it? The bogus attribution attached to it doesn't help its credibility either, does it?

and what evidence do you have that God exist?.........I'm wondering how much you really believe, since most of your thinking is purely based on man's knowledge, and the laws of physics, which have absolutely no bearing on God or angels, or things of the spirit.


Did a donkey really speak to Balaam, we know donkeys don't have the correct vocal cords to produce speech........not to mention Daniels three friends in the fiery furnace thats just plain impossible.........I'm begining to think your faith is what is humanly possible and logical according to the wisdom of man

 

[childofdust]

For those of you who have read it, I am curious to know what people here feel/think/understand/believe about the book of Enoch? Is it inspired? Is it enlightenment? Is it a source of darkness? Does it make you wonder about end times and the book of Revelations? Is it all about magic and demons? Should it have been included in the OT? What are your thoughts, views and beliefs about this ancient text?

Thanks......

I love 1 Enoch. It's a wonderful book. Like the Coptic and Ethiopian churches, I think it should be part of our canon. Usually, the ones that have a real problem with the book come to it with a huge bias/prejudice to begin with and they tend to spend their time trying to find ways to discount it instead of listen to what it says. Granted, however, it is a hard book to follow. Especially since the most complete version we have seems to be corrupted. But if you read it in the most recent scholastic edition (1 Enoch: A New Translation by George Nickelsburg), you'll find that it has been re-assembled, so-to-speak, in what is its most likely original order. This makes it much easier to follow. And there are two immensely helpful commentaries (1 Enoch: 1 / 1 Enoch: 2) to use as you go through it. Although it takes on the form of prophecy, vision, mythic narrative, symbolism, etc, all these are really nothing more than a container for what is really very simply a piece of Wisdom Literature. The whole point of 1 Enoch is that suffering and retribution will come to those who are wicked and that God will reward and restore those who are righteous. Maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, but at some point, justice will be done and injustice will be done away with. It serves to show that YHWH is ultimately in control over all creation, no matter what our present circumstances might lead us to believe. And it serves as a warning for those who disregard its wisdom and choose the path of unrighteousness: God will hold you accountable. A tremendous work that is often overlooked by those who are only content to play with its surface features (hint: the surface features aren't the point of it!).

 

[John Zain]

Let me get this straight; you do not believe Enoch to be inspired,
simply because the Jews did not believe it to be inspired?

News Flash! ... The Jews ALWAYS were, and still are, spiritually blind and deaf.

Anyone care to see the OT and NT verses?

I.E. The only ones ever worthwhile paying any attention to were da Prophets ... who were quoting God.

Thanks to you guys, I'm curious to read Enoch.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not speaking to the "450 foot tall humanoid" aspect, rather, the "hybrid" aspect ... especially if we consider a "spiritual hybrid."

* Jesus physical body, was the result of the Holy Spirit and a human.
* Jesus' physical body was capable of "transfiguring" (metamorphoses I believe) and the effects were seen physically.
* Moses body reflected a physical glow when he was in the presence of the Lord, to where he placed a veil over his face when this glow was there and he spoke to the Israelites
* Isaac was born via the power of the Spirit (Galatians). Specifically, in Genesis 18, we see that the return of the LORD (or one of the two beings with the LORD(Yahweh)) would facilitate the pregnancy of Sarah. In other words, it wasn't just Abraham having sex with Sarah that resulted in Isaac. It was the return of one of the three beings (perhaps the LORD/Yahweh) that was going to cause Sarah to conceive. So what does that make Isaac ?
* Furthermore, humans are capable of being translated (taken away by the Spirit of the Lord, "teleportation" style) without ill effect to their physical bodies, and placed in a different location, perhaps at faster-than-light speeds.
* Paul speaks of a man caught up to a part of heaven either in the body, or out of the body.
* There are believers who have received the Holy Spirit, and those who haven't, thus ... not all people have the Holy Spirit.

Some of the theology here is deeply problematic.

Jesus' body was not "the result of the Holy Spirit and a human", as though Jesus received half of His chromosomes from the Holy Spirit. The Virgin conception of our Lord was a miracle, the Holy Spirit did not impregnate Mary, did not contribute His "divine DNA" to the process. Jesus' humanity is 100% from Mary by the supernatural, miraculous intervention and act of God the Holy Spirit. Jesus' humanity is our humanity, the body with which He was born is identical to the body we possess. It wasn't fancier than ours, it was a flesh, blood, and bone body with all the weakness and frailty inherent to the bodies you and I possess. If it were otherwise, there is no salvation and no hope for the world.

The Transfiguration was a miraculous thing. Not a property of the pre-Resurrected Christ's body.

Moses was an ordinary human being. That upon being in contact with the Presence of YAHWEH resulted in an otherworldly glow doesn't change this fact.

No, Isaac was born of a natural union between Abraham and Sarah, but it was by the decree and power of God to overcome Sarah's barrenness.

In the case of circumstances such as Elijah's translation, we simply don't know what that is like. It does not speak to the "properties" of human fleshiness, but again speaks to a supernatural, miraculous act of God intervening in the normal affairs of the world.

Not even St. Paul knows whether this mystical experience was in the body our out of the body, and he seems content to allow it to remain a mystery.

Everyone who has been baptized into Christ has received the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:37-38), all Christians have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. End of story.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Zanting]

Well, recognizing the deception as being so embedded on so many levels was life shattering for me. But, now that the blinders have been lifted...I will never see the world in the same way again...that door has been opened...I place all my faith and trust in God because I don't trust mankind or its institutions...the majority of them, including education, government, and many religions are being used as part of the deception and I don't know which ones aren't...and I don't want to be deceived again. I pray that others will have their eyes opened too.

God Bless

 

[Zanting]

I think it is important to read because…

I do not believe it is wise to be spiritually blind and deaf, especially now. The luciferian/satanic spirit world is at work on Gods earth and the deception against mankind, Gods children, is very real. It is terrifying and even difficult to accept or believe…I had to experience a moment of incredible fear and oppression to truly understand the implications…I literally trembled within because I knew that this deception is ancient and so well orchestrated that the majority of mankind will remain blind to it, or will refuse to believe it possible…

But many do see it

And, how to talk about it can be very challenging…so…

As well as reading my Bible, I have been researching everything I can find about the Bible, it's origins, its history...books in...books out...the role of religion...the rise of christianity...prophecy and the world today etc., etc., and part of that is the book of Enoch, which I am currently reading. For me, it explains a lot about everything that is happening right now and arms me spiritually by revealing the enemy. And…I want to know God more and more each day…my spiritual education…

spitoutthekoolaid (quote 29) lays out pretty much what I see happening in the world around us. To accept this truth is to recognize Gods promise being fulfilled. In other words, the luceferian/satanic world is fulfilling prophecy by using deception to bring about world domination and control.
　
　

 

[eachallberg]

For those of you who have read it, I am curious to know what people here feel/think/understand/believe about the book of Enoch? Is it inspired? Is it enlightenment? Is it a source of darkness? Does it make you wonder about end times and the book of Revelations? Is it all about magic and demons? Should it have been included in the OT? What are your thoughts, views and beliefs about this ancient text?

Thanks......

As stated some posts before this the Ethiopian and Coptic Christians accept Enoch. The author of Jude quotes it.

It has descriptions similar to Ezekiel. Both seem like they're ET encounters.

Enoch is consistent with parts of genesis. I say that because god in the pillar of cloud mingling with Moses's isn't the same as Enoch's experience. Enoch was taken and saw god's face. Moses was denied.

Moses could of had an ET guiding them through the wilderness.

Im baffled when someone is against the idea of something unimaginable or impossible but yet they cling to a book with a bunch of stories full of wonder.

Can you imagine giants in are day?

In response to the book of Enoch...
The Most High is my canon.

Peace.

 

[TheGMan]

It's already been pointed out that giant human-angel hybrids are not exactly unknown in uncontroversial. I'll add to that - that the Book of Enoch isn't recognised by Rabbinic Judaism shouldn't be a problem. The tannaim brought their own agenda and biases to defining the canon.

What does seem to be the case is that the Book of Enoch is quoted outright in the Epistle of Jude and it is at least alluded to in 2 Peter and possibly in the Gospel of Matthew. Does that make it Scripture? I think that depends on what you think Scripture is.

To my mind, it has a better claim to being so than, certainly, Bel and the Dragon (possibly not a problem for Protestants) and is a more useful reference point for understanding the Gospels and Epistles than, say, the Book of Esther or Chronicles.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's already been pointed out that giant human-angel hybrids are not exactly unknown in uncontroversial. I'll add to that - that the Book of Enoch isn't recognised by Rabbinic Judaism shouldn't be a problem. The tannaim brought their own agenda and biases to defining the canon.

What does seem to be the case is that the Book of Enoch is quoted outright in the Epistle of Jude and it is at least alluded to in 2 Peter and possibly in the Gospel of Matthew. Does that make it Scripture? I think that depends on what you think Scripture is.

To my mind, it has a better claim to being so than, certainly, Bel and the Dragon (possibly not a problem for Protestants) and is a more useful reference point for understanding the Gospels and Epistles than, say, the Book of Esther or Chronicles.

St. Paul the Apostle quotes Epimenides, but this by no means would justify the inclusion of the works of the philosopher into the Biblical Canon.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TheGMan]

St. Paul the Apostle quotes Epimenides, but this by no means would justify the inclusion of the works of the philosopher into the Biblical Canon.

True. But context matters. Paul does not cite Epimenides as an authority. The sense is "Even Cretans think Cretans are dishonest." It's not exactly an endorsement.

What Scripture is Jesus referring to here?

Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

 

[ViaCrucis]

..probably returned to dust or something. These creatures were an abomination to the LORD.

Who knows what the LORD did with their bodies?



Anyway, the Scriptures do talk about giants (though only descendants) existing, even during the time of Moses:

But the men who had gone up with him said, “We are not able to go up against the people, for they are stronger than we.” And they gave the children of Israel a bad report of the land which they had spied out, saying, “The land through which we have gone as spies is a land that devours its inhabitants, and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature. There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight.” Numbers 13:31-33

These "giants" weren't multi-story tall beings. Goliath of Gath is said to have been descended from these. While many later manuscripts place Goliath's height at something approximating about 9'6" tall (still radically diminutive compared to the 450 beings being discussed), older manuscripts place Goliath's height at something closer to 6'4".

That's still a giant when you consider the average male height at the time and place being closer to 5'6, making Goliath tower over most other men. The Anakim were probably something closer to this, unusually large, but not fantastically so.

Further, the text in Numbers 13:32 says that the ten observers spread a slanderous report (dibbah) about the land. The word means "whispering" or defamation--what the ten unfaithful spies reported was slanderous, false, wicked--an exaggeration.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Zanting]

I have to agree...it is entirerly a cannon of wonders, from beginning to the end, Enoch could easily fit in as yet another fantastic wonder.