iamthelordsforever said in post 101:
The scrolls and trumpets were also judgements.
By the "scrolls", do you mean the seals? If so, note that the tribulation's first five seals (Rev. 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first four seals, the martyrs of the fifth seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Rev. 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the fifth seal foretells will happen sometime after the fifth seal (Rev. 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus unsealing the tribulation's seals (Rev. 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.
The tribulation's sixth seal (Rev. 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Rev. 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thes. 2:2) will begin at his second coming (1 Cor. 1:7-8; 2 Thes. 2:1-8; 2 Thes. 1:7-10), which won't happen until Rev. 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24 (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thes. 2:1-8). The people quoted at the 6th seal (Rev. 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in Jn. 7:12b and Mt. 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Rev. 6:17.
After the tribulation's sixth seal will occur its seventh seal (Rev. 8:1), out of which will come its seven trumpets (Rev. 8:1-2). Nothing requires that any of the first six trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The fifth trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Rev. 9:11). And the sixth trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Rev. 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the six trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy a third of different things (Rev. 8:7-12, Rev. 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause a third of the angels to be cast down to the earth for good (Rev. 12:4,9).
Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Rev. 13:4-18, Rev. 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction is not from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") wants only the best for mankind. In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Rev. 13:4-18, Rev. 12:9). The Antichrist will revile YHWH (Rev. 13:6, Dan. 11:36).
After the Antichrist's 3.5-year reign (Rev. 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials (or bowls) of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Rev. 11:19, Rev. 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Rev. 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Rev. 16:6-7, Rev. 13:7-10, Rev. 14:12-13, Rev. 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).
During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Mt. 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Rev. 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself is not the Christ (1 Jn. 2:22) and that Christ himself is not in the flesh (2 Jn. 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Rev. 20:4; 2 Tim. 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Tim. 4:1-2), for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Rev. 20:4, Rev. 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Rev. 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church is not appointed to God's wrath (1 Thes. 5:9).
Even when God's wrath comes in the seven vials (Rev. 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thes. 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Rev. 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isa. 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Gen. 7:7). After the seventh vial is completed (Rev. 16:17,19, Rev. 19:2), Jesus will return (Mt. 24:29-30) and bring the second-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Rev. 19:15-21). But before that second-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thes. 4:17; 2 Thes. 2:1, Mt. 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17).
At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
iamthelordsforever said in post 101:
Of course, the 2nd coming is in two parts, however, the Rapture is not the second coming for Jesus does not set foot on the ground, He merely calls us up.
What verse requires that he won't set his foot on the ground at the same coming that he calls us up?
Do you not also believe that the Church has replaced Israel?
Even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).
Also, why would Israel even exist today if the Jews were not God's chosen people still.
Not all Jews are God's chosen (elect) people. All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).
All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).
In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27).
Also, why would Israel even exist today if the Jews were not God's chosen people still.
The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming, for it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit, for it could be destroyed before Jesus' second coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.
