The biggest obstacle that keeps you from theism?

[Archaeopteryx]

Evidently that means you did NOT experience Him as he does, nor as I do, nor as the Church has.

Why do doubt that his religious experiences were authentic? Because he isn't religious now?

 

[Freodin]

Would you surrender your life to Christ and believe on Him for the remission of your sins if a theist was able to substantiate their claims?

At last, a good question. So why is there no follow up to this one?

I can, for my own atheism, accept the description "because theists cannot substantiate their claims".
I would "surrender [my] life the Christ" and all that if a Christian would be able to substantiate their claims - that is, present compelling evidence for them. (Obviously, I would not become a Christian if a Muslim could do that... be careful with the term 'theist' in that context! But I would submit myself to Allah in that case.)

I would do so, because it would be the only intellectually honest thing to do.


This is not the first time I stated this. It has been my position on religion for years, for decades. Even for religions that encompass concepts I abhor.


But somehow this never gets followed with the presentation of compelling evidence, with a substantiation of claims. All that follows is things like "I pray one day you may experience Him as I am."


Now consider this carefullly: here we have a very vocal Christian who deliberarly asks for one specific method that would compel unbelievers to become Christians, and gets the direct answer that this method would indeed bring the desired results if he could only make it work... and instantly he turns around and invokes a completely different method.

That seems to be almost a confession that his primary method does not work.

 

[Freodin]

Evidently that means you did NOT experience Him as he does, nor as I do, nor as the Church has.

To disagree with that: I would say that he experienced "Him" exactly as elioenai and you and the Church does. It is just that elioenai and you and "the Church" hadn't yet had the experiences that Davian had.

 

[KCfromNC]

Oh, so it is your position that Jesus Christ was a mythological god?

And what are you basing this quite erroneous proposition on?

All of the mythology surrounding it, obviously.

 

[Davian]

To disagree with that: I would say that he experienced "Him" exactly as elioenai and you and the Church does. It is just that elioenai and you and "the Church" hadn't yet had the experiences that Davian had.

Are you saying that seeking Christ should put some value in my experiences?

 

[Davian]

Oh, so it is your position that Jesus Christ was a mythological god?

And what are you basing this quite erroneous proposition on?

(my bold)
On what grounds do you label his proposition as "quite erroneous"?

It has a high degree of explanatory power. It explains why, even with all of your cut-and-paste apologetics, that you have not been getting any traction with your ideas in this forum. It resolves the problem of evil. It explains why you cannot demonstrate objective morals and what you mean by 'supernatural'.

Explain yourself.

 

[Davian]

What has reality done to you, that you should be so evasive of it?

Tu qoque? Et tu, Brute?

Is that in reference to Elio's nonsensical post, here?

That's what I was playing off of.

 

[Elioenai26]

I would do so, because it would be the only intellectually honest thing to do.

And you still are missing the mark.

One does not repent, and ask Christ to forgive them of their sins because they see it as being the intellectually honest thing to do.

One repents, and asks Christ to forgive them of their sins because they see themselves as being utterly lost and hopeless without Christ. They come to the point, through a revelation from God, of seeing themselves as God sees them and this acute awareness of sinfulness and utter need is why one repents, and asks Christ into their heart and for cleansing of sin.

In fact, it is not primarily an intellectual matter at all, but one in which the heart is guided by an awakened consciousness of sin from a position of self-sufficiency to a position of utter humility and helplessness.

God beckons unto us to come to Him so that He can reason with us, this is the intellectual aspect i.e. we hear about the gospel, and assimilate its truths as being true indeed and this intellectual assent then is proceeded by the above. From start to finish, it is the work of God.

So Freodin, I admire your honesty in saying you would become a Christian if you were given sufficient evidence. The question I have to ask you is: What is sufficient evidence? The evidence is not of such a manner as to pull you by the collar and force you or coerce you to believe.

I shall leave you with the words of the Great Mathematician Blaise Pascal:

Pascal on God's Hiddenness

​

"God has willed to redeem men and to open salvation to those who seek it. But men render themselves so unworthy of it that it is right that God should refuse to some, because of their obduracy, what He grants others from a compassion which is not due to them. If He had willed to overcome the obstinacy of the most hardened, He could have done so by revealing Himself so manifestly to them that they could not have doubted of the truth of His essence; as it will appear at the last day, with such thunders and such a convulsion of nature that the dead will rise again, and the blindest will see Him.” It is not in this manner that He has willed to appear in His advent of mercy, because, as so many make themselves unworthy of His mercy, He has willed to leave them in the loss of the good which they do not want.

It was not, then, right that He should appear in a manner manifestly divine, and completely capable of convincing all men; but it was also not right that He should come in so hidden a manner that He could not be known by those who should sincerely seek Him.

He has willed to make himself quite recognizable by those; and thus, willing to appear openly to those who seek Him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from Him with all their heart. He so regulates the knowledge of Himself that He has given signs of Himself, visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who seek Him not. There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition."

- Blaise Pascal, Pensées

(430)

 

[seeking Christ]

It does not matter what you use, Prayer does not work any more often than chance.

Surely this is a reference to so-called studies attempted on prayer? Those are completely invalid. They take no account of what prayer IS, how it works, what it does, nor how we are involved. They don;t account for the various types of prayer; intercession, supplication, nor anything else. Just so you know

Now, for the faithful who see this attack on our faith made all too often, it is spiritual POISON, and that is the sole reason for their bogus "studies." (Otherwise they'd be designed better) Here is the antidote:

"And he spake a parable unto them [to this end], that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? (Luke 18:8) I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

 

[seeking Christ]

Why do doubt that his religious experiences were authentic?

That's not what I said, is it?

 

[seeking Christ]

Now consider this carefullly: here we have a very vocal Christian who deliberarly asks for one specific method that would compel unbelievers to become Christians, and gets the direct answer that this method would indeed bring the desired results if he could only make it work... and instantly he turns around and invokes a completely different method.

That seems to be almost a confession that his primary method does not work.

It is a confession that YOUR stated preferred method doesn't seem to be the reality. God has prescribed very specific ways of coming to Him, that are at the same time malleable enough to accommodate anyone who wants to.

 

[seeking Christ]

To disagree with that: I would say that he experienced "Him" exactly as elioenai and you and the Church does.

Unpossible. The Church has not fallen away. Therefore something about what Davian experienced is different. (Davian's statement was that he experienced exactly what the OP has)

 

[seeking Christ]

It resolves the problem of evil.

I would be curious to see how you resolve the problem of evil, and also what you consider that problem to be.

 

[Gadarene]

It's rather pathetic how some Christians will have to resort to denial and character assassination when inconvenient facts come their way.

It's also funny how opaque Christianity becomes as soon as you question it. You'd think there'd be a lot of fine print going in, but all the convolution only comes up when people point out the man behind the curtain.

 

[Davian]

I would be curious to see how you resolve the problem of evil, and also what you consider that problem to be.

"In the philosophy of religion, the problem of evil is the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil with that of a deity who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (see theism).[1][2] An argument from evil attempts to show that the co-existence of evil and such a deity is unlikely or impossible, and attempts to show the contrary have been traditionally known as theodicies."

Problem of evil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If gods, including the god of the bible, are nothing more than myth, then there is nothing to reconcile.

Problem resolved.

It would also explain your "you cannot confine God to a test tube" and why prayer to gods works no different, statistically, than prayers to a jug of milk.

 

[Elioenai26]

"In the philosophy of religion, the problem of evil is the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil with that of a deity who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent (see theism).[1][2] An argument from evil attempts to show that the co-existence of evil and such a deity is unlikely or impossible, and attempts to show the contrary have been traditionally known as theodicies."

Problem of evil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If gods, including the god of the bible, are nothing more than myth, then there is nothing to reconcile.

Problem resolved.

It would also explain your "you cannot confine God to a test tube" and why prayer to gods works no different, statistically, than prayers to a jug of milk.

Is there anything wrong anywhere in the world?

 

[Davian]

Is there anything wrong anywhere in the world?

What do you mean by "wrong"?

That there exists people that claim to be unbelievers in your god?

Do you agree that my proposal possibly resolves the problem of evil?

 

[Elioenai26]

What do you mean by "wrong"?

Is there anything wrong in the world that you think should change or be made right or better? I think its pretty self explanatory.

 

[Elioenai26]

Do you agree that my proposal possibly resolves the problem of evil?

No I do not agree.

Just because there is nothing to reconcile evil with, does not make evil disappear. Doing away with God actually does away with the only good explanation for evil as well as the solution to it.

 

[Davian]

What do you mean by "wrong"?

That there exists people that claim to be unbelievers in your god?

Do you agree that my proposal possibly resolves the problem of evil?

Is there anything wrong in the world that you think should change or be made right or better?

In my opinion, yes.

I think its pretty self explanatory.

Not in the context of these elusive 'objective morals' you have been going on about.