The biblical doctrine of election

[FreeGrace2]

Romans:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If the carnal mind (the mind of the unsaved) is against God, if the unsaved cannot please God, how can they choose to believe?

Who says that the unsaved cannot please God? Not the Bible, anyway.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

It is faith that pleases God. And the verse does not limit who is able to "come to Him". It says "anyone".

All that is required to come to Him in faith, which pleases Him is that the one must believe that He exists, and that God rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Now, we must ask ourselves why would God reward someone for causing the action that pleases Him?

A reward, by definition, is something earned. But, if the reformed view that God chooses who will believe is true, then God is rewarding someone for what God Himself did. How does that make sense?

Belief would please God, yet it says that those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The verse in Romans was addressed to saved people. Paul is warning them that operating from the sinful nature, rather than the new regenerated nature cannot please God.

And Paul has given us 2 kinds of things that certainly do not please God:
grieving the Holy Spirit in Eph 4:30, and
quenching the Holy Spirit in 1 Thess 5:19

Therefore, the logical conclusion would be that since, in the unregenerate state, it is impossible to please God, God must take that first step. He gives us the faith whereby we can believe.

Nope. The first step was already taken by God; in several ways.

First, because of Adam's sin and effect on the entire human race (Rom 5:12-18), God provided the promise of salvation through His Son, who would die for the sins of mankind (John 3:16, 4:42, 2 cor 5:14,15, 1 Tim 4:10, Heb 2:9).

Second, God has revealed Himself and His divine power through creation, so that no one has any excuse for not recognizing Him as God, and being thankful to Him.

Rom 1:19,20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Please note that I address each of your points. Please return the favor when responding.

Your posts have generally ignored all of my points in favor of just making more points of your own.

I've given verses that actually say what I post. I've not seen that from your posts.

 

[david.d]

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:1-2

34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 13:34-35​

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 11-14​

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:31-34​

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Ephesians 1:3-6​

Predestinated, pre-destinated, predetermined destination. Some translations use predestined, which means bound to a destination. Eternal salvation. Chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. The elect. How can a goat become a sheep? Christ didn't say He came for His lost goats, He said He came for His lost Sheep.

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Matthew 18:11-13​

11For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Ezekiel 34:11-12​

36But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
Matthew 9:36​

Not once did Christ say He came for the goats.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 17:6-12​

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:39​

In John 17 he was speaking specifically of the disciples, but in John 6 he is speaking all those the Father has given Him (raise it up at the last day).

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:2

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Romans 11:2-7​

Election of Grace. Not only foreknowledge, but election of grace. Election is of grace, grace is not of election. He doesn't give grace to those that elect Him, He gives grace to those He elected.

Who are the non-elect?

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8​

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:8​

Service is called of the elect. The elect is called into service. The elect is in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

 

[FreeGrace2]

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:1-2​

Could have continued to v.7 - He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. We do know that not all do believe.

The Bible is quite clear about who Jesus came to save: everyone.
2 Cor 5:14,15 -
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Heb 2:9 - But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 John 4:14 - And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 13:34-35

For this reason, we should never base our theology on parables.​

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

And "His own", being the Jews, were a chosen nation.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 11-14

v.13 teaches that we are not born again of our own choice. But we are saved because we have chosen to believe His promise of eternal life.​

Not once did Christ say He came for the goats.

Let's examine what the Bible says about who He came to save:
For whom did Jesus come to save? The sick, the lost, the poor, the unrighteous, the ungodly, and sinners.

Matt 9:12 On hearing this, Jesus said, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. Are just the elect “sick”?

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost. Are just the elect “lost”?

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach good news to the poor. Are just the elect poor?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once FOR ALL, the righteous (Christ) for the unrighteous (humanity, all of them), to bring you to God. Are just the elect unrighteous?

Rom 5:6 You see, just at the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Are just the elect ungodly?

Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, it is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners. Are just the elect sinners?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The entire human race is described as sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, and sinners. Every single one of us.

If Christ died for just the elect, then reformed theology leads to universalism, because of these verses. That means the non elect are neither sick, lost, poor, unrighteous, ungodly, or sinners. So they don’t need salvation. And Christ wouldn’t need to die for any of them.

Election of Grace. Not only foreknowledge, but election of grace. Election is of grace, grace is not of election. He doesn't give grace to those that elect Him, He gives grace to those He elected.

The point of the OP is that God does not choose who will believe. iow, election isn't about being chosen for without conditions for salvation. There is ONE condition for salvation; to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who are the non-elect?

Those who haven't believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvationn.

Service is called of the elect. The elect is called into service.

Actually, believers are both elected to service (Eph 1:4) and called to service.

There was nothing in your post that refuted or challenged anything in the OP.

The OP listed 6 categories of those described as elect, and none of them were elected for salvation.

 

[david.d]

I feel like you are missing something and I can't help you understand it. You obviously know the Word, there is just a slither of truth in there you don't seem to see. I wasn't trying to challenge or refute anything you said, I shared scripture involving the elect and that is all I did.

Jesus spoke in parables and said if you have ears hear, if you have eyes see. Most of what he spoke was in parables, so if you think they mean nothing, then you are discounting quite a bit of understanding.

The OP listed 6 categories of those described as elect, and none of them were elected for salvation.

v.13 teaches that we are not born again of our own choice. But we are saved because we have chosen to believe His promise of eternal life.

"...we are not born again of our own choice." If we are not born again of our own choice, who's choice is it?

"But we are saved because we have chosen to believe His promise of eternal life." Saved from what, where? Everyone in the book of life already has eternal life, so what does believing save us from?

 

[david.d]

I have some scenarios and I'd like them explained without salvation by election (grace).

A 1 year old child dies. Do they have eternal life? If or if not, how do you know?

It's 1491 and a native in the Americas, whom has lived a long and good life dies. Do they have eternal life? If or if not, how do you know?

It's 1 BC and a gentile woman, whom has lived a long and good life dies. Do they have eternal life? If or if not, how do you know?

None of them could have heard a preacher or the gospel spoken, does that mean they are automatically damned?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I feel like you are missing something and I can't help you understand it.

It would be helpful if you could explain yourself.

You obviously know the Word, there is just a slither of truth in there you don't seem to see.

Could you point out this sliver of truth that I'm apparently not seeing?

I wasn't trying to challenge or refute anything you said, I shared scripture involving the elect and that is all I did.

Which is what I did in the OP. So, what's missing from the OP?

Jesus spoke in parables and said if you have ears hear, if you have eyes see. Most of what he spoke was in parables, so if you think they mean nothing, then you are discounting quite a bit of understanding.

I never said the parables "mean nothing". I said not to base theology on them. They were given to teach practical principles, not deep doctrines.

"...we are not born again of our own choice." If we are not born again of our own choice, who's choice is it?

It's God's choice, of course. Which has nothing to do with the idea that God chooses who will believe, which is the foundation of Calvinist election.

In fact, Acts 17:26 specifically says that God created mankind and put them when and where He chose.

"But we are saved because we have chosen to believe His promise of eternal life."

Is there a verse that says this in plain terms.

Saved from what, where? Everyone in the book of life already has eternal life, so what does believing save us from?

You don't know, really??

1. Saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
2. Being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification
3. Will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification

Notice that salvation involves 3 tenses: past, present, and future.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Romans:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If the carnal mind (the mind of the unsaved) is against God, if the unsaved cannot please God, how can they choose to believe? Belief would please God, yet it says that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Therefore, the logical conclusion would be that since, in the unregenerate state, it is impossible to please God, God must take that first step. He gives us the faith whereby we can believe.

AnnaliseH:

Great verse there! and it reminds us that salvation really must be all of grace!

 

[AnnaliseH]

I'm very much aware of the order here. However, let's examine His foreknowledge a bit. But first, btw, the parenthesis (those whom He decided upon) isn't what His foreknowledge is about. It's far more.

Actually, the word for foreknew in this particular verse is actually proginōskō, which can also be translated as predestinated. While the word for predestinate is actually proorizō, which means predetermined, or decreed from eternity, or foreordained.

 

[AnnaliseH]

I already addressed this verse in the OP:
"The single verse that does speak of being chosen for salvation is 2 Thess 2:13 - But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Let's go to the Greek on this particular verse.
Ἡμεῖς (We ourselves) δὲ (moreover) ὀφείλομεν (owe) εὐχαριστεῖν (thanks) τῷ (to the) Θεῷ (God) πάντοτε (always) περὶ (concerning) ὑμῶν (you), ἀδελφοὶ (brothers) ἠγαπημένοι (much loved) ὑπὸ(by) Κυρίο (the Lord), ὅτι (that) εἵλετο (preferred, chosen, elected) ὑμᾶς (you) ὁ (the) Θεὸς (God) ἀπ (to separation) ἀρχῆς( at the beginning) εἰς(unto) σωτηρίαν (salvation) ἐν (by, or through the instrumentality) ἁγιασμῷ (of the Holy) πνεύματος (Spirit), καὶ (and, and also) πίστει (conviction) ἀληθείας (of the truth),

In other words, we were elected by God to separation at the beginning unto salvation , through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit and conviction of the truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, the word for foreknew in this particular verse is actually proginōskō, which can also be translated as predestinated. While the word for predestinate is actually proorizō, which means predetermined, or decreed from eternity, or foreordained.

Yes. But this doesn't lead to the conclusion that God chooses who will believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's go to the Greek on this particular verse.
Ἡμεῖς (We ourselves) δὲ (moreover) ὀφείλομεν (owe) εὐχαριστεῖν (thanks) τῷ (to the) Θεῷ (God) πάντοτε (always) περὶ (concerning) ὑμῶν (you), ἀδελφοὶ (brothers) ἠγαπημένοι (much loved) ὑπὸ(by) Κυρίο (the Lord), ὅτι (that) εἵλετο (preferred, chosen, elected) ὑμᾶς (you) ὁ (the) Θεὸς (God) ἀπ (to separation) ἀρχῆς( at the beginning) εἰς(unto) σωτηρίαν (salvation) ἐν (by, or through the instrumentality) ἁγιασμῷ (of the Holy) πνεύματος (Spirit), καὶ (and, and also) πίστει (conviction) ἀληθείας (of the truth),

In other words, we were elected by God to separation at the beginning unto salvation , through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit and conviction of the truth.

Here's the NASB: But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

I don't see where "to separation" occurs in the verse. In fact, my interlinear doesn't include the Greek word in your interlinear followed by (to separation). However, by comparing the letters of that 2-letter word with other words in the verse, it appears the letters are an "a" and a "p". My lexicon says this about that word: "by apostrophe for apo". The lexicon says this about that word: "forth from, away from; hence it variously signifies departure; distance of time or place; avoidance; riddance; derivation from a quarter, source, or material; origination from agency or instrumentality."

The available interlinear on "biblehub.com" doesn't include either "ap" or "apo" in 2 Thess 2:13.

Regardless, the verse certainly doesn't say that God chose anyone to believe.

He clearly does choose who will be saved, but that's different from choosing who will believe.

He chooses to save believers, as 1 Cor 1:21 very plainly states.

My point stands. God doesn't choose who will believe.

 

[bling]

I have some scenarios and I'd like them explained without salvation by election (grace).

A 1 year old child dies. Do they have eternal life? If or if not, how do you know?

It's 1491 and a native in the Americas, whom has lived a long and good life dies. Do they have eternal life? If or if not, how do you know?

It's 1 BC and a gentile woman, whom has lived a long and good life dies. Do they have eternal life? If or if not, how do you know?

None of them could have heard a preacher or the gospel spoken, does that mean they are automatically damned?

Free Grace2 may address this, but generally the answer is:
"It is up to God and who God is."
God judges the hearts of people and not just their outward actions.
As far as those that never had the opportunity to make the free will choice to accept or reject God's charity, that also is up to God's perfect Love and perfect justice.
I do not believe in the doctrine of original sin so the baby who dies is in a safe condition (without sin) and not needing to be saved.

 

[MDC]

Here's the NASB: But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

I don't see where "to separation" occurs in the verse. In fact, my interlinear doesn't include the Greek word in your interlinear followed by (to separation). However, by comparing the letters of that 2-letter word with other words in the verse, it appears the letters are an "a" and a "p". My lexicon says this about that word: "by apostrophe for apo". The lexicon says this about that word: "forth from, away from; hence it variously signifies departure; distance of time or place; avoidance; riddance; derivation from a quarter, source, or material; origination from agency or instrumentality."

The available interlinear on "biblehub.com" doesn't include either "ap" or "apo" in 2 Thess 2:13.

Regardless, the verse certainly doesn't say that God chose anyone to believe.

He clearly does choose who will be saved, but that's different from choosing who will believe.

He chooses to save believers, as 1 Cor 1:21 very plainly states.

My point stands. God doesn't choose who will believe.

"He chooses to save believers".. And based on what? Mans autonomous will? That scripture is very clear on what it says but you refuse to believe it. Chosen for salvation includes faith by the power and work of the Spirit. Your Arminian spin to these scriptures is evident

 

[FreeGrace2]

Free Grace2 may address this, but generally the answer is:
"It is up to God and who God is."
God judges the hearts of people and not just their outward actions.
As far as those that never had the opportunity to make the free will choice to accept or reject God's charity, that also is up to God's perfect Love and perfect justice.
I do not believe in the doctrine of original sin so the baby who dies is in a safe condition (without sin) and not needing to be saved.

I have a different view. Since Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2), those who die before being able to choose "right from wrong" (Isa 7:15,16) will go to heaven. I believe this is King David's view as well, from what he said about his 7 day old child who died: 2 Sam 12:23
"But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

Those who believe that Christ died only for the elect think that David was only speaking of the grave in David's words: "I will go to him".

But, why would a believer in the Messiah even think of the body in the ground when they know they will spend eternity with God? So that view doesn't make sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"He chooses to save believers".. And based on what?

I think 1 Cor 1:21 answers the question. "God is pleased...to save those who believe". The condition for saving is believing.

Mans autonomous will? That scripture is very clear on what it says but you refuse to believe it.

It seems to me the other way around. 1 Cor 1:21 tells us the condition upon which God is pleased to save: those who believe.

Notice the verse doesn't say "those He elected".

Chosen for salvation includes faith by the power and work of the Spirit

So, what verse supports your claim here?

Your Arminian spin to these scriptures is evident

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I believe both contain serious errors. And both contain some truth.

But since you've thrown the "spin" charge, what have I spun? Please be specific.

I've provided verses for every point I've made. If my understanding of these verses is "mere spin" for anyone, they are free to address such verses and provide the actual meaning of them. Please.

I don't want to be in error any more than you would want to be wrong. So let's get that out of the way.

If I'm wrong, show me exactly how and why. Just throwing the "spin" charge doesn't help anyone.

 

[MDC]

I think 1 Cor 1:21 answers the question. "God is pleased...to save those who believe". The condition for saving is believing.


It seems to me the other way around. 1 Cor 1:21 tells us the condition upon which God is pleased to save: those who believe.

Notice the verse doesn't say "those He elected".


So, what verse supports your claim here?


I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I believe both contain serious errors. And both contain some truth.

But since you've thrown the "spin" charge, what have I spun? Please be specific.

I've provided verses for every point I've made. If my understanding of these verses is "mere spin" for anyone, they are free to address such verses and provide the actual meaning of them. Please.

I don't want to be in error any more than you would want to be wrong. So let's get that out of the way.

If I'm wrong, show me exactly how and why. Just throwing the "spin" charge doesn't help anyone.

The basis or foundation by which God saves, is Christ Jesus and His merits alone. And that by Sovereign grace. This is what must be believed. And to say you are neither Arminian or Calvinist isn't true. Because what you are defending and standing on are Arminian views whether you like it or not. I'm sure you don't want to be in error and is why the OP was started. Your whole point in starting it i believe, is to disprove the doctrine of election as it relates to salvation and God choosing whom to save by means of faith. So to be honest, I believe you aren't ignorant or surprised of what scripture that has been thrown at you to refute your beliefs. I'm sure you know what "Calvinist" will throw at you to justify the doctrines of grace. So if those scriptures haven't convinced you by Gods grace, then nothing will. Let me ask you this, if mans will of choosing Christ is the cause of salvation... Why can't man willfully choose to walk away from Christ? What's the basis of ones security in Christ? Because this is where you are terribly inconsistent

 

[FreeGrace2]

The basis or foundation by which God saves, is Christ Jesus and His merits alone.

No, because the Bible teaches that Christ died for everyone. And not everyone will be saved.

The basis for salvation is faith alone (apart from any works) in Christ alone.

Paul's answer to the jailer's question supports this:
Acts 16:30-31
30 He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved — you and your household."

The jailer asked what he MUST DO to be saved. The answer is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

And that by Sovereign grace. This is what must be believed.

Are you saying that one must believe that God's grace is sovereign to be saved???

And to say you are neither Arminian or Calvinist isn't true.

It's true whether one is able to comprehend that or not.

Because what you are defending and standing on are Arminian views whether you like it or not.

And I also stand on eternal security, possibly more than you. And that doesn't make me a Calvinist.

I'm sure you don't want to be in error and is why the OP was started. Your whole point in starting it i believe, is to disprove the doctrine of election as it relates to salvation and God choosing whom to save by means of faith.

If there is anything in the OP that is unbiblical, it should be easy to point out the points that are unbibical.

So to be honest, I believe you aren't ignorant or surprised of what scripture that has been thrown at you to refute your beliefs.

I have provided much Scripture in the OP that supports the fact that election is not about being saved. Feel free to prove otherwise by explaining what all those verses actually mean.

I'm sure you know what "Calvinist" will throw at you to justify the doctrines of grace.

All of God's doctrines are on the basis of grace. Calvinism does not have the corner on the market of grace.

So if those scriptures haven't convinced you by Gods grace, then nothing will.

I have actually addressed those Scriptures to point out that none of them show that election is about salvation, and all the verses in the OP show that salvation is NOT involved in election.

Let me ask you this, if mans will of choosing Christ is the cause of salvation... Why can't man willfully choose to walk away from Christ?

Quite a bit of error in this question.

First, it isn't "man's will of choosing Christ" that is the cause of salvation. That's just a huge error that Calvinists make when faced with views other than their own.

The cause of salvation is God alone. He causes salvation. All man can do is receive the gift.

Consider a homeless beggar on a street. A man walks by, and hands a meal from MacDonald's to him, and the beggar reaches out and accepts the gift. Does that mean that the beggar was the cause of having the meal to eat? I sure hope you're reasonable enough to realize that accepting a gift in NO WAY is the cause of having the gift.

It is the GIVER who is the CAUSE of the gift being given. Not the givee taking the gift.

Now, the second error is trying to use free will to argue that man can walk away from the gift. The reason is clearly obvious in Scripture. Salvation is permanent.

God's gifts are irrevocable, Rom 11:29. Eternal life is one of those gifts, Rom 6:23. But there's much more than just these 2 verses to prove it. Jesus said that those who believe HAVE (as in the present tense) eternal life in John 5:24. Then, in John 10:28 He said that those He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Arminians irrationally argue against eternal security in spite of these clear verses.

What's the basis of ones security in Christ?

God's promise is the basis.

Because this is where you are terribly inconsistent

Please show how, now that I've cleared up all your misconceptions of my view.

 

[david.d]

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 2:14‭-‬18 KJV

The slither you are missing is not every time that it talks about salvation is it referring to eternal life. Just as Noah was saved by the ark and his obedience, so are we saved by our obedience. But Noah was saved on earth of an earthly destruction and so are we. All of the elect have eternal life, not all of the elect will serve in obedience but all who serve in obedience already had eternal life.

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:7‭-‬8 KJV

Every one of the elect will be born again, it is done by the Spirit and not controlled by man. Whether it happens in the womb or as a dying breath, election of Grace will stand.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The slither you are missing is not every time that it talks about salvation is it referring to eternal life.

Of course. But what does this have to do with the OP and the fact that election is not about salvation?

Just as Noah was saved by the ark and his obedience, so are we saved by our obedience.

Please define what "we are saved" means to you (what kind of salvation is in view) and please define what is meant by "obedience".

Every one of the elect will be born again, it is done by the Spirit and not controlled by man. Whether it happens in the womb or as a dying breath, election of Grace will stand.

The OP doesn't say that election isn't by grace. Of course it is. But the issue that seems to be missed is the fact that election isn't about salvation.

For those who disagree, pleasee address the 6 categories of election and explain how any of the 6 categories were elected to salvation.

 

[EmSw]

Consider a homeless beggar on a street. A man walks by, and hands a meal from MacDonald's to him, and the beggar reaches out and accepts the gift. Does that mean that the beggar was the cause of having the meal to eat? I sure hope you're reasonable enough to realize that accepting a gift in NO WAY is the cause of having the gift.

Doesn't your belief say the beggar doesn't have to reach out and accept the gift? Don't you say he only has to believe? Don't you agree the beggar only has to believe he has the meal and he will be filled?

What is it - reach out and accept salvation, or just believe you have salvation?