• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

The Bible

RileyG

Veteran
Christian Forums Staff
Red Team - Moderator
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Feb 10, 2013
40,125
22,798
30
Nebraska
✟939,942.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
the higher criticism thing really does not matter, because the Church has the correct understanding, which is what matters. if in 100 years they find out that Hebrews was not written by St Paul it's no real big deal for us, because it is of the theology of St Paul.

So, no one really knows if St. Paul really wrote Hebrews or not? That's my understanding as far as I know.
 
Upvote 0
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest
Is truth discovered by majority rule/belief or understanding...as in a democracy?

Orthodoxy largely relies on the conciliar model of church governance- that the bishops of the church express the majority will in council and that this reflects the will of the Holy Spirit, insofar as it does not contradict prior councils.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,215
2,559
59
Home
Visit site
✟252,489.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I'm really curious to know if there are any Orthodox people around here who are comfortable with historical/higher criticism. JEDP Documentary hypothesis, three Isaiahs, negative historical evaluations of Exodus traditions, historical Jesus research- that sort of thing.

Yeah, it is what I was taught in two separate scripture courses required in programs leading to ordination in the Church. These things make a great deal of sense to me, so I'm comfortable with them. Most Orthodox laity I know, however, are not, which to me is also understandable.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,215
2,559
59
Home
Visit site
✟252,489.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So, no one really knows if St. Paul really wrote Hebrews or not? That's my understanding as far as I know.

It is not likely at all that Hebrews was written by Paul, and is typically acknowledged that someone else created it.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,215
2,559
59
Home
Visit site
✟252,489.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Is truth discovered by majority rule/belief or understanding...as in a democracy?

No, Truth is God. God is Love. Love is discovered by those who practice it. God is known and also knows those who discover Love and worship Him. All of Orthodox Christian theology and worship have developed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit are aimed at helping us to grow in Love, and hence in our knowledge of Truth. Prayer, fasting, almsgiving, scripture reading, the sacraments... These are key.

Simply trust the process... in God Who has given it. Then you'll see what it means to not see, and to be okay with this.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,769
1,429
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟211,337.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
No, Truth is God. God is Love. Love is discovered by those who practice it. God is known and also knows those who discover Love and worship Him. All of Orthodox Christian theology and worship have developed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit are aimed at helping us to grow in Love, and hence in our knowledge of Truth. Prayer, fasting, almsgiving, scripture reading, the sacraments... These are key.

Simply trust the process... in God Who has given it. Then you'll see what it means to not see, and to be okay with this.
So true....
 
Upvote 0
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest
It is not likely at all that Hebrews was written by Paul, and is typically acknowledged that someone else created it.

Having nothing to do with the fact that I'm Lutheran, I particularly like Luther's suggestion that Hebrews could have been written by Apollos. Hellenized Alexandrian Jew conversant with Middle Platonism? Sounds like the author of Hebrews to me.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,525
21,218
Earth
✟1,746,572.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Is truth discovered by majority rule/belief or understanding...as in a democracy?

no, Truth is consensus of belief from the beginning. there were points when most of the Church followed heretics, so it is not a democracy. we believe that the Spirit speaks through the Church as a whole.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,525
21,218
Earth
✟1,746,572.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So, no one really knows if St. Paul really wrote Hebrews or not? That's my understanding as far as I know.

some do. we know a lot of the Apostles dictated as well. personally I think it was of St Paul, but again, if not, it's no big deal since it follows his theology, and he followed Christ.
 
Upvote 0
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest
Gratia, what was it that you found comforting in those two responses?

Thank you.

I'm just glad to see that Orthodox people feel free to be part of the wider international university-level scholarly discussions in biblical studies despite their very traditional faith-commitments. It's something I think Catholics have spearheaded the way on (being both traditional and critical) together with conservative members within the Protestant mainlines. My denomination, the LCMS, isn't at all favorable toward that kind of critical biblical study, and I think we're ultimately weaker for it.
 
Upvote 0

JM

Confessional Free Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,497
3,774
Canada
✟908,203.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
I'm just glad to see that Orthodox people feel free to be part of the wider international university-level scholarly discussions in biblical studies despite their very traditional faith-commitments. It's something I think Catholics have spearheaded the way on (being both traditional and critical) together with conservative members within the Protestant mainlines. My denomination, the LCMS, isn't at all favorable toward that kind of critical biblical study, and I think we're ultimately weaker for it.

I agree. Perhaps the Eastern Orthodox would like to weight in...it seems the RCs want to weaken the witnesses of scripture as a grab for authority. Would you agree? Protestants have traditionally and confessionally rejected secular methods of textual crictism.
 
Upvote 0

Knee V

It's phonetic.
Sep 17, 2003
8,417
1,741
43
South Bend, IN
✟115,823.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I doubt we'll ever see the Orthodox spearheading any of this stuff. I think that for us, while there are some who will take a greater interest, the issue is more that of apathy. For example, whether the book of Isaiah was written entirely by Isaiah or by four different authors, the fact remains that the Holy Spirit has brought the book of Isaiah into the life of His people and has led us into using it. The Orthodox faith is what it is and we will continue to use the Scriptures the way we use them, no matter what is discovered about them. So we don't oppose textual criticism, but there is little compelling reason for us to make it a priority.
 
Upvote 0
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest
I doubt we'll ever see the Orthodox spearheading any of this stuff. I think that for us, while there are some who will take a greater interest, the issue is more that of apathy. For example, whether the book of Isaiah was written entirely by Isaiah or by four different authors, the fact remains that the Holy Spirit has brought the book of Isaiah into the life of His people and has led us into using it. The Orthodox faith is what it is and we will continue to use the Scriptures the way we use them, no matter what is discovered about them. So we don't oppose textual criticism, but there is little compelling reason for us to make it a priority.

See, I find it extraordinarily helpful, because it shows us that revelation is a historical process that happens primarily through the inspiration of God's people and through constant reflection on the identity of God's people by reevaluations of formative events (like the exodus) in new situations (like the exile). The upshot is that instead of trusting Scripture as an inerrant text that stands alone as a voice amid hearers, Scripture is instead the central testimony to a living tradition that extends back into Israel's polytheistic primordial past and continues into the life of the liturgy and the teachings of the fathers and councils. It is a threat to amateur understandings of Sola Scriptura not just from a liberal angle, from from a traditionally conservative one.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
42,525
21,218
Earth
✟1,746,572.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
See, I find it extraordinarily helpful, because it shows us that revelation is a historical process that happens primarily through the inspiration of God's people and through constant reflection on the identity of God's people by reevaluations of formative events (like the exodus) in new situations (like the exile). The upshot is that instead of trusting Scripture as an inerrant text that stands alone as a voice amid hearers, Scripture is instead the central testimony to a living tradition that extends back into Israel's polytheistic primordial past and continues into the life of the liturgy and the teachings of the fathers and councils. It is a threat to amateur understandings of Sola Scriptura not just from a liberal angle, from from a traditionally conservative one.

I think your point that it was not meant to stand alone is pretty spot on, because it was not. the Faith is what should tint our lenses when we read Scripture and not the other way around. so I think from our POV, if a more high and academic look would deepen someone's understanding, glory to God. the life of the Church and being in that life would keep one from erring, no matter what angle or how they looked at Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Macarius

Progressive Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2007
3,263
771
The Ivory Tower
✟97,122.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree. Perhaps the Eastern Orthodox would like to weight in...it seems the RCs want to weaken the witnesses of scripture as a grab for authority.

That depends on what you mean by "weaken" and "the witnesses of scripture." Those are rather loaded terms (as is "grab for authority" for that matter). Some (many) of the most Scriptural minds I have had the privilege of knowing have been RCC's.

To put it in the categories of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation: tradition CAN distract from one Scripture (as could a bishop), but the point of the Holy Traditions (and the point of Church authority properly used) is that it engages one in a two-millenium long meditation on the meaning and import of Scripture and, since that meaning and import is ultimately Christ, the Scriptures, Tradition, and Authority of the Church all bring one Christ-ward in a single, full salvific movement.

Would you agree? Protestants have traditionally and confessionally rejected secular methods of textual crictism.

That's emphatically false (sorry!) - Protestants were the ones who started text criticism, source criticism, and modernist hermeneutics. Most of the giants of 19th and early 20th century criticism were Protestants. Some Protestants reacted against that (among other modernist movements), but in general it was the Catholics, Jews, and Orthodox who were slow to "catch up" to the new forms of Biblical criticism. Catholics have, post-Vatican II, done the most to engage Biblical criticism directly (with Judaism right there with them); Orthodoxy is still not so sure about it.

Early Rabbinic interpretation has far more in common with early Patristic interpretation than either has in common with today's methods of criticism. And I say that as someone who is quite content to engage with and use contemporary forms of criticism (I actually find them really, really insightful in many cases).

Hope that helps a bit...

Two books that I'd recommend for anyone interested in Orthodox approaches to Criticism:
Eugen Pentiuc, The Old Testament in Eastern Orthodox Tradition, Oxford University Press, 2014.

Fr. Eugen is an Orthodox priest and professor at Holy Cross Seminary in Boston. He's a well respected Biblical scholar, and this is his most recent book. I don't find him consistent on all the points he makes (actually, the book has a somewhat maddening tendency to make a fantastic point and then latter behave as if that fantastic point had never been made), but he does a really solid job of demonstrating and explaining what, to people steeped in the precision of Western Christianity, can look like an infuriatingly vague approach to Scripture by the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Jon D Levenson, The Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, and Historical Criticism, WJK Press, 1993.

Perhaps the foremost "traditionalist" (tradition-focused) Biblical scholar today, Levenson (a conservative Jew), uses this text to completely skewer the hidden Protestantizing agenda behind much of 19th and 20th c. Biblical criticism. He is incredibly well read, quite fair to those whom he critiques (there are NO shallow polemics in this text), and generally spot on. It should say something that this man is beloved by those whom he disagrees with (liberal and conservative alike) as much as by those who agree with him. He is someone fully capable of historical-critical exegesis (as any of his many exegetical books would show), but who is also quite aware of its limitations and its lack of true objectivity (despite its claims). He doesn't address Orthodoxy here, but many of the critiques he levels against liberal Protestantism could easily come from the mouth of Orthodox Christians.

Hope that helps...

In Christ,
Macarius
 
Upvote 0

JM

Confessional Free Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,497
3,774
Canada
✟908,203.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
That's emphatically false (sorry!) -

It seems you missunderstood what I wrote. This is the forum of the. Eastern Orthodox denomination so I can't argue but I will clarify.

The Reformed confessions state very clearly the Bible was "kept pure in all ages...." I pointed to Luther, Calvin, etc. who held to the idea called common faith today called the logic of faith to keep often doubted passages in scripture. This is what I meant by "traditionally and confessionally." It is clear from the 16th century until the 19th century invasion of Liberalism Prots held to the Textus Receptus.

Protestants were the ones who started text criticism, source criticism, and modernist hermeneutics. Most of the giants of 19th and early 20th century criticism were Protestants.[\quote]

Textual criticism began with Liberalism which rejects Christianity by reinterpreting the faith as myths and fables useful for a moral story but that's it. At the very least the German Liberal movement denied the "traditional and confessionally" view of the Bible. Muller wrote set on Post Reformation Reformed Dogmatics where he outlines the Prot view of scripture and it exactly as I stated.

This is your denominational forum so I won't go anything further. Since I can't respond further I would like to recommend you are welcome to come to the Semper forum to continue this discussion, we have an Ask A Calvinist section.
 
Upvote 0

JM

Confessional Free Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,497
3,774
Canada
✟908,203.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Some (many) of the most Scriptural minds I have had the privilege of knowing have been RCC's.

Besides a few keyboard warriors that has never been my experience with RCs or EO. When I attended St Nektarios for over a year it was probably the worst example of lack of biblical knowledge which caused me to move on.

That brings me to my next question about the Filioque. Clark Carleton argues the EO agree with the West claiming the temporal sending of the Spirit of Christ was orthodox but the eternal sending was not. How was this foreseen when the creed was written? How does this affect the believer? It don't believe it does.

Just as an experiment I asked RCs and EOs if the Father sends the Son eternally or temporally based on the creed and thy both thought it was crazy because they never considered the question before.

Why is this important if EO believe Christ sends the Spirit on temporal missions but not eternal...since the creed that does not differentiate.

Thanks jm
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Dec 16, 2011
5,215
2,559
59
Home
Visit site
✟252,489.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Because affect can work (cause action) without cognition. Thus, the eternal procession of the spirit (action causing energy) is not wholly dependent upon the logos. Rather, there is a balance between Them that is rooted in Their unique relationships with the Father (the mind, or seat of consciousness which encompasses both cognitions and feelings). The Trinity is not a top down chain of command. The Three agree in One. Just as in a human person nearing perfection, the mind, with its thoughts and feelings become balanced and unconflicted (in perfect harmony), so it is within the perfect Godhead, in Whose image and likeness people are made.

So, when Christ said that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, He meant it to be understood thus, and for important symbolic reasons, not to be messed with. Some have represented the Trinity as a straight line with the Father at the top, the Son beneath Him, and the Spirit beneath the Son. Others tend to image the Trinity as a triangle. Both symbols are incorrect. The Trinity is most accurately represented by the form of the Cross, believe it or not. Do we think it a mere coincidence that we make the sight of the cross over our bodies when we speak the name of the Trinity while in prayer? It is no coincidence. The practice came about because it was only natural for us to do this.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0