The Bible teaches that salvation comes with conditions.

[jimmyjimmy]

James 2:18 is not written to babies, or to the thief on the cross, but to men who live out their faith. James was not writing to babies or to men on their deathbeds.

I'm out. Your dodging is too tiresome.

 

[SkyWriting]

Which means salvation is not a one size fit all type package. So the thief on the cross cannot be used as an example for a person who lives out their faith.

It is a good indicator to other people. God only can see the heart.
He does not judge by outward appearances.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
(Ignore the wealth of the person)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm out. Your dodging is too tiresome.

Uh, huh. Please offer a word for word commentary in your own words on five of the verses in post #311.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is a good indicator to other people. God only can see the heart.
He does not judge by outward appearances.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
(Ignore the wealth of the person)

When Jesus says do not judge by outward appearances, he was referring to their external looks, and not by what they do. For he also said to judge righteously. How can we judge righteously? By what people do. If a believer murders, we can judge that and say they are wrong. There is no trying to get in their heart and figure out that they are okay with God. They are not okay with God because no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). In fact, this proves that one cannot be saved by a belief alone on Jesus. George Sodini believed that Jesus died for his future sins, and he wrote that in his suicide letter before he killed a bunch of people.

 

[SkyWriting]

When Jesus says do not judge by outward appearances, he also said to judge righteously. How can we judge righteously?

Twice it is explained that "judge righteously" is about ignoring a persons wealth when you are an elected sitting judge.

Glad I could help!

What Does the Bible Say About Judging Others?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Twice it is explained that "judge righteously" is about ignoring a persons wealth when you are an elected sitting judge.

Glad I could help!

What Does the Bible Say About Judging Others?

It is actually in context to this:

"If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? " (John 7:23).

Jesus was telling them that they were judging by how things appeared to them in the fact that they thought Jesus was sinning by healing on the Sabbath, but they themselves did not judge righteously because they believe it is okay to do a work by circumcision on the Sabbath day. They see men who are circumcised as men of God, but that would be judging by external appearances only and not by what men do righteously. For Jesus said they ignored the weightier matters like love, justice, faith, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is a good indicator to other people. God only can see the heart.
He does not judge by outward appearances.

1 Samuel 16:7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
(Ignore the wealth of the person)

Again, babies who die and are saved proves that faith in God is not always a requirement for salvation for all human beings. So this means that the thief on the cross cannot be an indicator for all men who are saved. Especially when there are tons of verses that say that we have to be faithful and or do good works as a part of salvation (See again post #311). Obviously these other verses in post #311 are not referring to believers on their deathbed or babies.

Note: Please understand that I believe that a person is initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ (the Justification Process), but that does not mean there is not a 2nd step or stage in the salvation process (Which is Sanctification or living holy by the power of God working through us).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bible Highlighter said: ↑
So you don't believe all babies who die go Heaven?

You are happy to speak where the Bible hasn't. I won't go there.

I've pointed out all the ways that BH is in error, but on this one, he is correct.

In fact, King David DID "go there". When his son from rape died at 1 week of age, this is what David said:

"But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” 2 Sam 12:23

Please don't try to argue that David only meant by "go to him" that David meant that he would die someday and "join" his dead son in the ground.

No mature believer would ever talk like that. David was clearly speaking of joining his son in heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As I said. Salvation is not a one size fits all package. Those who are able to live out their faith are required to go through the Sanctification Process after they are saved by the Justification Process. Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required.

iow, God's discipline is based on knowledge. The more one knows, the higher the standard. But not for salvation, as you so erroneously think. For eternal rewards.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Nope. Babies do not really have faith exactly. They do not understand the concept yet. So salvation is not a one size fit all kind of thing.

Did Jesus Christ die for everyone?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Hi Al. You accused the poster you responded for cherry picking then did it yourself stopping at John 15:6. I highlighted the portions which I think you did not consider.

I didn't cherry pick, I just highlighted the portion that said that even his disciples were told that they must abide or remain in him. In fact, the word 'unless' indicates that this remaining is a condition. The other words do not negate that condition.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Did Jesus Christ die for everyone?

Babies have no sin.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Nonsense... The one who does not abide in Him did not belong to Him.

That isn't what he said. That is pretext. What he said was they had to remain in him. And he was speaking to the apostles.

By the way, they all left him and he forgave them. That ought to be an encouragement rather than the fearmongering you claim.

You do realize that it is your view that is way more harsh right? What you say is that if a person sins, then they were never one of his sheep in the first place. What Jesus taught and what the apostles taught was that sin could be cleansed even after one became a disciple. And we read that this is true with Peter. Instead of Jesus rebuking Peter for his sin and telling him he never was one of his in the first place, he forgave him. It's your view that teaches one can continually sin without consequence and without the necessity to confess that sin. Because if one sins, then he was never saved in the first place. That is utter nonsense.

But you are already clean because of the Word I have spoken to you...

And this was before they abandoned him in the Garden. They obeyed him to that point, and that's why he said they were 'clean.'

My sheep hear My voice and they follow me and I give then eternal life and they shall never perish, no one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to Me is Greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand - I and the Father are One. John 10:27-30

But this doesn't negate the words he said later. The words which directed them to remain and said that UNLESS they remain in him, they would be cast into the fire. That's an ultimate, reversible, consequence as we read in 1 John and as we can discover by reading the rest of John's gospel account. Their leaving of him did not permanently dismiss them from his flock nor did it prove they were never his disciples in the first place.

Jesus set the conditions and you want to use his own words against him.

Let's stop all this fear mongering about losing salvation.

Let's not pretend that people who sin were never Christians to begin with. It is your view that erroneously preaches that God prevents people from sinning once they're saved. That is coercion and God has never coerced anyone to either obey or disobey.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Bible Highlighter said: ↑
So you don't believe all babies who die go Heaven?

I've pointed out all the ways that BH is in error, but on this one, he is correct.

In fact, King David DID "go there". When his son from rape died at 1 week of age, this is what David said:

"But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” 2 Sam 12:23

Please don't try to argue that David only meant by "go to him" that David meant that he would die someday and "join" his dead son in the ground.

No mature believer would ever talk like that. David was clearly speaking of joining his son in heaven.

Let's not forget that Paul also "went there." In Romans 7 he explains that children are "without the law" and therefore, "sin is dead" to them. That is really the only way we can read it, unless we can point to some time in Paul's life other than childhood that he was "apart from the law."

Then we also have Jesus telling us that our conversion makes us like little children and unless we become like them, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Little children are without sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Did Jesus Christ die for everyone?"

Babies have no sin.

This doesn't answer my question. What are you trying to dodge?

The Bible SAYS Christ died for everyone.

So, the next obvious question. Since many people die as infants, why would Christ die for those infants, if personal sin is a requirement for having Christ die for the sinner?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's not forget that Paul also "went there." In Romans 7 he explains that children are "without the law" and therefore, "sin is dead" to them. That is really the only way we can read it, unless we can point to some time in Paul's life other than childhood that he was "apart from the law."

It would be real helpful to actually quote or at least cite the verse(s) being referred to. I just read through ch 7 and found NO reference to "children" at all.

So, what verse were you thinking of?

Then we also have Jesus telling us that our conversion makes us like little children and unless we become like them, we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

This is contradictory. The fact of being 'converted' means entrance into heaven. If 'conversion' "makes us like little children", then we obviously will enter the kingdom.

Little children are without sin.

I'll wait for your proof text about children being "without the law" before passing judgment.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I asked:
"Did Jesus Christ die for everyone?"

This doesn't answer my question. What are you trying to dodge?

How is that a dodge?

The Bible SAYS Christ died for everyone.

It says he died for the world that those who believe *might* not perish. It's written in the subjunctive mood for a reason. After all, the inventor of language itself doesn't speak confusion.

So, the next obvious question. Since many people die as infants, why would Christ die for those infants, if personal sin is a requirement for having Christ die for the sinner?

If he died for sinners, then by definition, babies are already saved. There's nothing to save them from. However, babies do grow up and sin. So they can receive the benefit of that salvation eventually. He loved those sinless babies too and wanted them to grow up to be cleansed of their sins should they commit any.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You messed up your post. See for yourself in post #337.

Could you go back and fix it. When I clicked on "quote", this is all I got, your ID.

 

[Al Touthentop]

It would be real helpful to actually quote or at least cite the verse(s) being referred to. I just read through ch 7 and found NO reference to "children" at all.

So, what verse were you thinking of?

This demanding that the bible speak to you in words you understand instead of you trying to understand puts all of the responsibility on God and the writers of the bible. They should have written it in ways you can easily understand or you will refuse to believe it.

Romans 7:8-9
"But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

That word revived there is a terrible translation of the Greek word, which in this context is not 'revived' but 'came alive.' It's one of the most unfortunate errors in the NKJV. Yet, even so, it can be understood.

The NASB translates that passage more correctly.

I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;

Now, we know that Paul was born "under the law" given that he was a Jew and his parents raised him as a Jew. So there's only one possibility here when he says 'I was alive once without the law' and that is when he was a child and didn't have the ability to understand it and be responsible for keeping it. He wasn't yet trained in it. He certainly didn't physically die when the law came, otherwise he couldn't have written the letter to the Romans. So he spiritually died when he committed his first sin.

This is contradictory. The fact of being 'converted' means entrance into heaven. If 'conversion' "makes us like little children", then we obviously will enter the kingdom.

You're telling me Jesus contradicted himself?

Matthew 18:2-3
"Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Clearly here Jesus says that conversion is what makes one like children. Now what quality about a child do you think he's talking about there? No facial hair? No menstrual cycle? Small feet?

He's talking about innocence. Sinlessness. And one's conversion results in remission of sins.

I'll wait for your proof text about children being "without the law" before passing judgment.

Oh...I'm not so sure about that. Seems you already made a judgement.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But...Jesus directly told His 11 disciples that although they were clean (saved), they still had to abide in Him in order to bear fruit. So Jesus was clear that saved people may not be abiding in Him.

Totally agree, this is what I have been saying... but with different words. I think also that abiding can have more than one meaning as it has 12 different Greek meanings.

But yes, being saved and abiding are two seperate issues.