The Bible or Calvinism

[zippy2006]

Most Calvinists (or a lot, anyway) don't read Calvin.

That seems to prove my point.

 

[RisenInJesus]

Most Calvinists (or a lot, anyway) don't read Calvin. So your point is moot.

Yet, many Calvinists idolize John Calvin or Reformed teachers today, giving their words precedence over the scriptures.

 

[Hammster]

Yet, many Calvinists idolize John Calvin or Reformed teachers today, giving their words precedence over the scriptures.

That's a genetic fallacy. Even if true, which it isn't, it wouldn't disprove Calvinism.

 

[Hammster]

Servetus in 3...2...1...

 

[Hammster]

That seems to prove my point.

An insignificant one.

 

[Hammster]

What does the Bible teach concerning election?

13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. - 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

 

[zippy2006]

An insignificant one.

Not so. Like Albion, Calvinists will rush to defend against the claim that God is the author of evil (and they tend to do so with emotional bravado). Yet they are perfectly unaware that Calvin himself mocked the claim that God permitted but did not author evil. It therefore seems that many Calvinists would leave Calvinism if they understood it better. And that is a hopeful verdict.

 

[Hammster]

Not so. Like Albion, Calvinists will rush to defend against the claim that God is the author of evil (and they tend to do so with emotional bravado). Yet they are perfectly unaware that Calvin himself mocked the claim that God permitted but did not author evil. It therefore seems that many Calvinists would leave Calvinism if they understood it better. And that is a hopeful verdict.

Still doesn't disprove Calvinism.

 

[actionsub]

At this point in my walk, I'm just going to accept that the question of whether or not salvation is fully Calvinistic or not is beyond my ability to grasp. I'm okay with not having a definite answer here, because I've read and witnessed proofs for both sides of this argument. God works in mysterious ways, after all. Why should I know how He works all the time?

I strongly suspect that when we get to Heaven, and the seeming paradox is explained, Calvinist and Arminians, we will all do a collective facepalm and say, "How did we not see this?"

 

[zippy2006]

Still doesn't disprove Calvinism.

Sure it does. In fact, Calvinism has been easily disproved to the satisfaction of the vast majority of Christians. Syllogisms such as these are sufficient:

1. The Calvinistic god predestines individuals to Hell.
2. God does not predestine individuals to Hell.
3. Therefore the Calvinistic god is not God.

1. The Calvinistic god is the author of evil.
2. God is not the author of evil.
3. Therefore the Calvinistic god is not God.

 

[Hammster]

Sure it does. In fact, Calvinism has been easily disproved to the satisfaction of the vast majority of Christians. Syllogisms such as these are sufficient:

1. The Calvinistic god predestines individuals to Hell.
2. God does not predestine individuals to Hell.
3. Therefore the Calvinistic god is not God.

1. The Calvinistic god is the author of evil.
2. God is not the author of evil.
3. Therefore the Calvinistic god is not God.

Those are terrible. Who came up with them.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Is the gospel presented in the Bible the same as the message of Calvinism? The claim has been made numerous times by Calvinists that the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) or the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" is the biblical gospel. Is this true?

I personally don't care so much. As long as the person believes in grace through Jesus Christ, all the peculiarities of his or her beliefs don't matter the least bit. Predestined, OSAS, etc etc etc - just games of scholastics.

Believer in true Jesus? Have everlasting life? Good enough!!!!

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

RisenInJesus,

[Is the gospel presented in the Bible the same as the message of Calvinism? The claim has been made numerous times by Calvinists that the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) or the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" is the biblical gospel. Is this true?]

Yes, when properly explained it covers from the fall to redemption

 

[Hammster]

satisfaction of the vast majority of Christians.

The truth is the truth, even if nobody believes it. A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.

 

[rockytopva]

John Calvin hated AnaBaptist, and even accused Michael Servetus of being AnaBaptist, whom he would later roast at the stake. I do not see how Baptist like the Calvin guy when he hated them in return.

 

[zippy2006]

The truth is the truth, even if nobody believes it. A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it.

Sure, but that doesn't mean what you believe is true. You seem to have insulated yourself in a room of relativism where proofs don't exist and Calvinism is invincible.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"zippy

[Traditional Christians are emotional because they believe Calvinism represents a serious form of blasphemy: it makes God the author of evil and therefore evil himself. If they are right, their emotion is perfectly justified, and their emotion is a result of their conclusion, not the other way around.]

Not at all. You cannot find one Cal who teaches this idea...

show it here in the 1689 confession, give it your best shot,lol
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )

 

[zippy2006]

"zippy

[Traditional Christians are emotional because they believe Calvinism represents a serious form of blasphemy: it makes God the author of evil and therefore evil himself. If they are right, their emotion is perfectly justified, and their emotion is a result of their conclusion, not the other way around.]

Not at all. You cannot find one Cal who teaches this idea...

I pointed out one here. You may have heard of him. His name is John Calvin:

...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)
​

If you want a more modern example, try John Piper:

God ... brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child... (link)
​

show it here in the 1689 confession, give it your best shot,lol

Here's your problem: you're looking at a Baptist confession rather than a Reformed confession. Close but no cigar.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Doesn't it seem kind of weird for a person to promote and defend Calvinism as a five-point doctrine, but then to not read or even reject parts of what John Calvin actually wrote? The theology you're promoting is literally named after its promoter.

Imho that would kind of be like a Catholic promoting the Real Presence while on the other hand rejecting Marian veneration and Apostolic succession. What?

 

[rockytopva]

I have often wondered if John Calvin actually liked anyone?