The Bible or Calvinism

jimmyjimmy

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Is the gospel presented in the Bible the same as the message of Calvinism? The claim has been made numerous times by Calvinists that the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) or the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" is the biblical gospel. Is this true?


You do realize that people who hold to the views you oppose are Christians, right? And, that most are extremely bright; many used to hold your views on these issues, so they know both sides; They also have a bunch of very great theologians on our side, and they take scripture very seriously.
 
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RisenInJesus

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What truly and deeply troubles me about Calvinism (Biblically) is that apparently God actually desires that most people go to eternal damnation, and more specifically, He created most people for no other purpose but to suffer eternal torment.

Yet, the Bible is clear that God desires that NONE should perish, but ALL come to repentance. That God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son.

This alone may do who knows how much damage to the Gospel.

Also, the belief that there is no such thing as free will. In that case, God is responsible for ALL choices made by mankind, including Adam and Eve's decision to disobey Him in the Garden. So then, how can there be any such thing as evil? Or how can there be any such thing as love? Love is a choice after all. Without free will, God becomes a puppet master and everything is reduced to nothing more than illusion.

Your post highlights so many important issues, I think especially this..."Love is a choice after all".
Throughout the scriptures we see that God is a relational Creator God who desires personal relationship and interaction with His created beings. In 1 John it is stated that...God is love. The triune Being of God has eternally existed in loving relationship one with another:Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Humans were created in the image of God and yet Calvinists insist that freewill cannot be a part of a human being's response to the love demonstrated by God toward His creation. Yet, real love must always be given freely or it is no love at all.
 
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zippy2006

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You do realize that people who hold to the views you oppose are Christians, right? And, that most are extremely bright; many used to hold your views on these issues, so they know both sides; They also have a bunch of very great theologians on our side, and they take scripture very seriously.

This is an ad hominem. When faced with objections to Calvinism, the reply is given that some Calvinists are "extremely bright," and they know both sides of the issue, and there are lots of awesome Reformed theologians, and they are super serious about Scripture. But we never hear answers to the objections. St. Paul knew that the proof was in the words, not in pretty garb:

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)​
 
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amariselle

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Your post highlights so many important issues, I think especially this..."Love is a choice after all".
Throughout the scriptures we see that God is a relational Creator God who desires personal relationship and interaction with His created beings. In 1 John it is stated that...God is love. The triune Being of God has eternally existed in loving relationship one with another:Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Humans were created in the image of God and yet Calvinists insist that freewill cannot be a part of a human being's response to the love demonstrated by God toward His creation. Yet, real love must always be given freely or it is no love at all.

Exactly! Well said.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Most people take Calvin out of context when they quote him, turning it into a misquote.
The theology came as but after Calvin himself...I can present the same theology all from the gospel of John.
Would I have to call it Jesusism?
The cals on this board will gladly answer sincere questions.
Not so much caricatures and strawmen.:wave:

A poster had made the point that many Calvinists do not read Calvin. Respectfully, the theology first pieced together and expressed by John Calvin, while he definitely quoted Scripture extensively to support his ideas, is still a theology of his own expression.

To say that many Calvinists do not read Calvin, or to suggest that some Calvinists do not or may not agree with all that Calvin wrote or taught strikes me as kind of odd. Calvinism is named for Calvin, just as Lutheranism is named for Luther.
 
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RisenInJesus

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You do realize that people who hold to the views you oppose are Christians, right? And, that most are extremely bright; many used to hold your views on these issues, so they know both sides; They also have a bunch of very great theologians on our side, and they take scripture very seriously.
I realize that many are Christians, but I don't know of anyone becoming a Calvinist from reading the Bible alone. Most Calvinists start off as typical Bible believing Christians and then are mentored and converted to Calvinism by Reformed or Calvinists teachers and writers. Some may not be saved at all. John Calvin taught that elect infants are saved when baptized, so it is possible many may have simply assumed that because they were baptized they are elect and saved. Being extremely bright or a very great theologian does not necessarily mean one has accurate understanding of the gospel or truths of the scriptures. Oftentimes, those who are overly intellectual may miss clear and simple truths, especially if pride in one's intellect and theological position comes into play. Jesus said we are to become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.
 
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amariselle

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A poster had made the point that many Calvinists do not read Calvin. Respectfully, the theology first pieced together and expressed by John Calvin, while he definitely quoted Scripture extensively to support his ideas, is still a theology of his own expression.

To say that many Calvinists do not read Calvin, or to suggest that some Calvinists do not or may not agree with all that Calvin wrote or taught strikes me as kind of odd. Calvinism is named for Calvin, just as Lutheranism is named for Luther.

Another reason not to go by anyone else's name. Anyone who does so should be aware of the entirety of that person's doctrine and realize that others will naturally think they are aware and are in complete agreement with the person whose name they use.

If a person isn't aware of/doesn't agree with all that someone else teaches, why would they choose to go by that person's name?
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Being extremely bright or a very great theologian does not necessarily mean one has accurate understanding of the gospel or truths of the scriptures.

Of course it doesn't. My point is that in your ignorance on the subject you speak as if Calvinists are idiots. That couldn't be further from the truth. You clearly don't understand your own position, let alone Calvin's.
 
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anna ~ grace

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It also strikes me as kind of unsafe to base your personal theology upon the shoulders of a single man, who taught and wrote during an era of intense theological upheaval, where everything from the Real Presence, to the nature of salvation, to the Godhood of Christ, to the role and function of baptism, to the purpose and number of Sacraments, to ecclesial authority, to what the word "Church" meant, to the relevance and meaning of Apostolic succession, the Canon of Scripture, Mariology, and hagiology was being intensely debated, and in many cases re-defined on an individual basis.

That's a *lot* of topics, whose history within Eastern and Western Christian thought already dated about 1,500 years prior.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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It also strikes me as kind of unsafe to base your personal theology upon the shoulders of a single man, who taught and wrote during an era of intense theological upheaval, where everything from the Real Presence, to the nature of salvation, to the Godhood of Christ, to the role and function of baptism, to the purpose and number of Sacraments, to ecclesial authority, to what the word "Church" meant, to the relevance and meaning of Apostolic succession, the Canon of Scripture, Mariology, and hagiology was being intensely debated, and in many cases re-defined on an individual basis.

That's a *lot* of topics, whose history within Eastern and Western Christian thought already dated about 1,500 years prior.

Many "Calvinists" haven't read much of Calvin, but one doesn't have to trust in, or even read Calvin to understand God's sovereign in election. It jump off of the pages from beginning to end. Man sins, and God saves sinners.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Many "Calvinists" haven't read much of Calvin, but one doesn't have to trust in, or even read Calvin to understand God's sovereign in election. It jump off of the pages from beginning to end. Man sins, and God saves sinners.

But Calvinism in and of itself admittedly focuses on one aspect of what Calvin thought needed emphasis within the topic of how Salvation works. He had his favorite ideas, key words, and a very specific and unique slant on the whole topic.

He also had much to say about other topics of significance, like baptism, what "Church" means, how we are to undestand the Eucharist, and other ideas.

How we are saved is perhaps the most important topic within all of Christianity, as Christianity itself puts forth that God sent His Son into the world to save us from death, sin, and condemnation. What is Salvation? How does it work? What must one do, and how is that determined? These are huge and looming questions, Jimmy. And they deserve to be studied and answered accurately.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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But Calvinism in and of itself admittedly focuses on one aspect of what Calvin thought needed emphasis within the topic of how Salvation works. He had his favorite ideas, key words, and a very specific and unique slant on the whole topic.

He also had much to say about other topics of significance, like baptism, what "Church" means, how we are to undestand the Eucharist, and other ideas.

How we are saved is perhaps the most important topic within all of Christianity, as Christianity itself puts forth that God sent His Son into the world to save us from death, sin, and condemnation. What is Salvation? How does it work? What must one do, and how is that determined? These are huge and looming questions, Jimmy. And they deserve to be studied and answered accurately.

Yes. Most people who say that they are Calvinists are Calvinists in soteriology only. Obviously, Baptists would fall into that group.
 
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RisenInJesus

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Of course it doesn't. My point is that in your ignorance on the subject you speak as if Calvinists are idiots. That couldn't be further from the truth. You clearly don't understand your own position, let alone Calvin's.
I don't think Calvinists are idiots. I would never think such a thing. I do think they are deceived. I don't say that arrogantly because I have bought into false teachings in my past. It is something that we as humans are all vulnerable to. I'm not sure why you are say I don't understand my own position, though ...or Calvin's.
 
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anna ~ grace

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Yes. Most people who say that they are Calvinists are Calvinists in soteriology only. Obviously, Baptists would fall into that group.

Which is pretty unique, as the predecessors to the Baptists, the Anabaptists / early Mennonites were actually seriously opposed by Calvin and condemned by him.
 
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ladodgers6

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Which of the five points do you claim is not part of Calvinism?

You misunderstand what I am saying. The 5 points do not sum up Classical Calvinism. The 5 points was a response to the 5 points of what came to be known as Arminianism. There is so much more to Calvinism than just the 5 points, that's my point.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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You misunderstand what I am saying. The 5 points do not sum up Classical Calvinism. The 5 points was a response to the 5 points of what came to be known as Arminianism. There is so much more to Calvinism than just the 5 points, that's my point.

That's 6 points. ;)
 
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ladodgers6

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Ok, but if the Five Points still accurately and faithfully describe what Calvinism teaches, i.e. they are an accurate and truthful reflection / summary of aspects of what Calvin taught and preached, then how can the Five Points not be cited as Calvinism?
These five points were created to refute the 5 points of Arminianism. The is whole lot more to Calvinism than just these five points.
 
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ladodgers6

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Most people who oppose Calvinism have done a tremendous amount of research and realize exactly when and why the five points came to be. It is these five points, along with other aspects of Calvinism, which are the doctrines proliferated by today's prominent Calvinistic and Reformed teachers and churches.
I beg to differ. 99.99% of people caricature Classical Calvinism. Here's an example, explain the Classical Covenant Theology that the Reformed Faith teaches?
 
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