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Featured The Bible or Calvinism

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by RisenInJesus, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    Is the gospel presented in the Bible the same as the message of Calvinism? The claim has been made numerous times by Calvinists that the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) or the so-called "Doctrines of Grace" is the biblical gospel. Is this true?

     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    For most of them, yes. But the problem is not that they are without Biblical foundation, but that their opposite number can be found in scripture as well. That's why there's a never-ending struggle between the two sides.
     
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  3. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    Any person, church, or group can use and abuse scriptures to support their system of theology. I think that all Christians are called to search the scriptures to see whether doctrines which are taught and claimed to be truth really do line up with the scriptures.
     
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  4. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Agreed. But us agreeing on that doesn't really do much to decide or settle the issue you raised in the OP, does it?
     
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  5. Hammster

    Hammster Time for some thrilling heroics. Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    If it's presented biblically, Calvinism correctly explains the gospel.
     
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  6. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    At this point in my walk, I'm just going to accept that the question of whether or not salvation is fully Calvinistic or not is beyond my ability to grasp. I'm okay with not having a definite answer here, because I've read and witnessed proofs for both sides of this argument. God works in mysterious ways, after all. Why should I know how He works all the time?
     
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  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    No,
    online you can find sufficient Biblical proof that it has all been disproven - it contradicts too much Scripture by the claims it makes. Instead of agreeing with this, excuses are made , as if 'exceptions' are made sometimes for contradicting some Scripture in favor of some doctrine (many doctrines are this way, btw).
     
  8. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

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    The five points of Calvinism, properly understood, are biblically sound. I believe that there are two reasons that they are rejected. The first reason is that people don't understand the basic rules of biblical interpretation and the second reason is that people become overly emotional about the subject.
     
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  9. Hammster

    Hammster Time for some thrilling heroics. Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    I think that sums it up.
     
  10. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    No, of course not. I believe there are two reasons they are accepted. First, the Calvinist deviates from Scripture and the long tradition of the Church in favor of the polemical theological traditions of the early "Reformers." Second, they have been spoon-fed such doctrines from a young age and they stuck.
     
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  11. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    It is interesting that this is a common reason given by Calvinists for their interlocutor's error: emotion. Upon inspection it turns out to be a rather fragile justification. Pro-choice advocates might say the same thing about pro-lifers. They err in their emotion. But at this point the fallacy should be easier to spot.

    People get emotional when considering things that matter a great deal to them, and this is no sign of error. Pro-lifers are emotional because they believe abortion is a legal form of murder. If they are right, their emotion is perfectly justified, and their emotion is a result of their conclusion, not the other way around.

    Traditional Christians are emotional because they believe Calvinism represents a serious form of blasphemy: it makes God the author of evil and therefore evil himself. If they are right, their emotion is perfectly justified, and their emotion is a result of their conclusion, not the other way around.

    It is perhaps fitting that Calvinists, unduly influenced by Reformation theological disputes, are also unduly influenced by forms of modern Kantian philosophy which pits emotion against reason. "You're just being emotional!" said the pro-choicer to the pro-lifer.
     
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  12. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    A few minutes ago, I was about to post this--

    But I decided against making the point. THEN I read the following--
    Of course, they are not right about that!

    I probably should have posted the original message after all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  13. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    Many believers who do understand basic rules of biblical interpretation find the doctrines of Calvinism to be contrary to the scriptures. I have seen plenty of Calvinists become overly and aggressively emotional on the subject. I can understand that Christians who believe Calvinism to be in error may become emotional when it appears that such doctrines malign the character of God and distort the message of salvation.
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    No moreso than the opponents of Calvinism, who probably deserve a little less leeway on the matter since their ire is based upon misunderstanding Calvinism, as is shown in your very own post here.

     
  15. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    If it is the view of those who oppose Calvinism that such doctrines malign the character of God ...how is that misrepresenting Calvinism? I think those who disagree with Calvinism are capable (and most have) of reading and studying the subject from the writings of Calvinists material so that they are understanding the Calvinist position correctly.
     
  16. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    They misunderstand what Election is all about, natch. If they did not misunderstand--or are simply misrepresenting the matter--they could not say such a thing, since Calvinism's points in no way do malign the character of God.
     
  17. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    What does the Bible teach concerning election?
     
  18. zippy2006

    zippy2006 Dragonsworn

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    Many Calvinists also suffer from a lack of knowledge of Calvinism. For example:

    ...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)​
     
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  19. Hammster

    Hammster Time for some thrilling heroics. Staff Member Administrator Supporter

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    Most Calvinists (or a lot, anyway) don't read Calvin. So your point is moot.
     
  20. RisenInJesus

    RisenInJesus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I don't think a lot of those who call themselves Calvinists fully understand all that Calvinism entails and the ramifications of the beliefs.
     
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