The Bible Is A Catholic Book

packermann

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One example was enough to prove your statement false. I don't understand why are having such a hard time admitting that.
You said that the Catholic Church was not unified at all for a span of 500 years. Unless that one example covered all of those 500 years then you cannot say that the example proved this. It is simple math. An example that cover a few years does not cover 500 years.
 
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packermann

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What you call communion has little in common with what we call communion.
I think we all knew that.

That is irrelevant. Bob is pointing out that he can go to worship in other churches just as you can. It does not matter that a Protestant form of worship is different than an Orthodox form of worship.
 
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packermann

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We are the same Church. I can receive Holy Communion in any Orthodox Church, whether Greek or Russian or Romanian or Japanese etc. All I need to do is let the priest know in advance so that he can know who my bishop is.

And Protestants don't even have to do that. So does that not mean that Orthodoxy is less united than Protestantism?
 
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Daniel C

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Well, you are talking about Judaism, not Christianity.

And in the Jewish culture there was the highest respect given to the oldest. But God is not limited to our cultures. So he can choose Jacob over his older brother Esau, and He can choose David over his older brothers. God often chooses the simple over the wise and the young over the elder. He chose simple fishermen to start a movement that turned the Roman Empire upside down. Even recently, He had His mother appear to three peasant children in Fatima instead of appearing to theologians at the Vatican. He chooses the foolish to confound the wise.


Is the book of 1 Samuel in your Bible?
 
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packermann

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Firstly, the above was not from the article but was a comment posted by a friend of the author.
Secondly, Vladimir Soloviev had a number of heretical views, and I'm not sure why Catholics like to quote him as some kind of authority because his views would be equally heretical in the Catholic Church despite Soloviev's fondness for the papacy.

And what good is it quoting from someone who totally agrees with me? I do not need to quote a parrot! Soloviev grew up in Orthodoxy. He knows the weaknesses of it. He sees the unity of Orthodox churches as being a fake. He sees the need for a central magisterium.

But you ignored the fact that Orthodoxy is on the verge of a major split. Nevermind what Soloviev said! There are numerous articles on that on the internet. And this split of far worse that any other Church splits - even within Protestantism. At least those splits are on matters of doctrine, morality, or liturgy. It is understandable to not comprise on matters of truth, or at least what you perceive as being the truth. But Orthodoxy is going to split on politics! How worldly can you get!
 
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packermann

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And Protestants don't even have to do that. So does that not mean that Orthodoxy is less united than Protestantism?

Is the book of 1 Samuel in your Bible?


Yes, but it predated Christianity. Christianity started with Christ. For instance, in the Old Testament the Jews worshipped God on Saturday. Does that mean that Christians worshipped God on Saturday? No, of course not!

OT Judaism led into Christianity. But it is not Christianity.
 
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packermann

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Even if that were true, and I don't know that it is; so what?
You don't have to be a catholic to buy, own or read a Bible.
No one is saying that you cannot own or read the Bible. But the Reformation started with the premise that the Catholic Church has a corrupted gospel of faith plus works. But the Reformers still want to use the Catholic Church's Bible. This is grossly inconsistent. If the Catholic Church has proved to corrupted the gospel then how you trust its Bible?
Take a look at the Mormons. They have felt that the Catholic Church totally corrupted the simple teachings of Jesus. So they have felt that they cannot trust the Catholic Church in preserving the Bible all those centuries without the Church also corrupting the Bible. That is why they believe that God has given mankind another prophet (Joseph Smith) with another scripture (Book of Mormon) that has not been corrupted. I am not advocating to be a Mormon, but at least they are consistent. They understood that the Bible was a Catholic book. And since they believes that Catholic Church's gospel is corrupted then the Catholic Church's Bible would also be corrupted.
A few years ago there was a book, made into a movie, called "The Da Vinci Code". The author's premise is that the Catholic Church, in order to maintain power, wanted people to believe that Jesus was God. Do they inserted key verses in the Bible, that showed that Jesus was God. From a Protestant perspective, I do not see how this is not possible. If the Church corrupted the gospel of faith alone to faith plus works then why wouldn't they insert verses in the Bible to say Jesus was God? This used to bother me a a Protestant. But praise God, I am now Catholic! I no longer believe that the Church's gospel is corrupt so I am comfortable in believing that the Church's Bible is not corrupt.

I don't see how you can possibly know that.
I recall studying this at a Protestant seminary (I was once a Baptist minister). Up until the end of the first century, all writings were done on papryus. Starting in the second century, they were replaced with the more durable parchments, and then later paper. But papyrus was easily decayed - only small fragments remain. If God had providentially introduced parchments just a century earlier then we would have the original documents fully preserved. That would have made it much easier to hold to sola scripture! But He did not do this. It is almost as if God wanted to make sure we did not have any of the original documents, so that we would have to depend on copies and copies done under the auspices of the Catholic Church. Could this mean that God is Catholic?

If someone was convinced that the Lord wanted them to make copies of the documents, they would do it, and they would no doubt expect their wife to know, and honour, that.
You are thinking that the 1st century was like the 21st century. People worked sun up to sun down in the earlier centuries to raise families. We take for granted what we have today. Life is much easier - many of us have free time that they did not have back then. Making copies would be a gruesome hobby - something that the layman could not afford to take up. He had a family to raise and mouths to feed. Only a hermit or a monk could have done this. In fact, we even know of one person - St. Jerome, who lived in a cave by himself to dedicated his time to such an extensive work.

No doubt because they had a lot of time on their hands; it doesn't mean that there was no one else at all who couldn't have done it.
Yes it does. Because no one had the time to do it. They were too busy feeding their families.

That might be true, and no doubt that we owe a great deal to those who translated the Scriptures for us. But why does that make it YOUR book?
When I say it is our book, I am not meaning that we have some copyright on it. It is in public domain by now. But up until the Reformation there were no Protestants. The Catholic Church was the custodian of the Bible. As the Jews were entrusted with the Old Testament oracles of God so was the Catholic Church entrusted with the New Testament. Not only did God entrust the Church to make copies, God entrusted the Church with the important task of determining which NT documents should be part of the Bible.
At the end of the fourth century, there were two councils to determine what should be in the Bible. They had to choose among 19 gospels. Most of them were rejected. Only four were put into the Bible. Then at 405 AD, they were finished, and they sent that to the current pope, who ratified it. Now, we Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit moved on these Councils and the pope to compile the Bible as He wanted, just as the Holy Spirit has led the Church in the rest of its doctrines. But since Protestants do not believe that the Holy Spirit has led the Church in all of God's truth then Protestants should start over with those 19 gospels and decide which gospel should be in the Protestant Bible. But it is a bit more difficult, since most Protestants do not believe in the infallibilty of councils. So I suggest that the Bible bookstores have all 19 gospels on their shelves. Then a Protestant can browse all the gospels and can prayerfully choose which gospel should be in his or her Bible. Then the Bible would not be Catholic book. However, the Bible owned by another Protestant would be an entirely different book. At least then would can be consistent. You would no longer be rejecting the Catholic gospel but still holding onto the Catholic Bible.

It is interpreted, and applied, by the Holy Spirit; no one else.
If you only have the Holy Spirit lead to individuals to interpret the Bible, then what happened when you have conflicting interpretations.
Over two hundred years we had a great revival in our land, called the Great Awakening. Two of its leaders were George Whitfield and Joyhn Wesley. Both of these were men of God, being led by the Holy Spirit. But they had two different interpretations of the Bible. Whitfield believed that the Bible taught that God predestined some to turn to Christ and be saved and the rest be damned and Wesley believed that man has a free will to accept Christ or reject Him. Their differences were so strong that Wesley said to Whitfield (as I remembered it), "Your God is my Devil". Those are pretty strong words. This was no small difference. Did the Holy Spirit lead both of these men of God to two contradictory interpretations of the Bible?
Your statement implies that I could not read the Bible without being in a Catholic church, or without the help of the Catholic church - yet I have been doing so for more than 50 years. Millions of others would say the same.
But are these millions coming up with the same interpretation of the Bible? Do they all see predestination taught in the Bible? Do they all see free will in the Bible? Do they all see salvation being taught the same way in the Bible? Do they all believe that the Bible teaches that you must accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord? Do they all believe that the Bible teaches that you must accept Jesus as your Savior only? Do they all believe that a born-again Christian can never lose his salvation? Or do they all believe that a born-again Christian can his salvation? This is why there are over 25,000 schisms in Protestanntism. Check the history of your denomination. Unless your denomination was around at the time of the Reformation your denomination was split off from some other denomination.
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19 - 21
Look what it says about dissensions and factions! It says live in dissensions and faction will not inherit the kingdom of God. There are thousands of factions within Protestantism! There are thousands of dissensions within Protestantism! How can all these schisms be of God?
Catholics translating it into English does not mean it is a Catholic book - any more than me translating Pliny's letters means that I now own Pliny's letters.
You would not own Pliny's original letters but you would own the translation you made of Pliny's letters.
The Catholic Church compiled the original documents into what was then called the Bible. The Bible was the end-product of the canonization process of those original documents. To be a consistent Protestant go back and start with those documents again and build your own Bible from scratch.
 
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prodromos

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I can receive communion in any Baptist or Presbyterian church (Just as they can in mine) and I don't need to let their pastor know ahead of time who my Seventh-day Adventist pastor is... that does not mean these three denominations are in fact one denomination.
None of the above could receive communion in an Orthodox Church. A Catholic cannot receive communion in an Orthodox Church. Only Orthodox can receive communion in an Orthodox Church. In Orthodox ecclesiology, this is indicative of all Orthodox jurisdictions being one and the same Church. Since Protestants (and Catholics) do not share the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, your argument is totally irrelevant. You may use a lot of the same words, but you understand them completely differently to us.
 
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prodromos

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You said that the Catholic Church was not unified at all for a span of 500 years. Unless that one example covered all of those 500 years then you cannot say that the example proved this. It is simple math. An example that cover a few years does not cover 500 years.
It's called "hyperbole".
 
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prodromos

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That is irrelevant. Bob is pointing out that he can go to worship in other churches just as you can. It does not matter that a Protestant form of worship is different than an Orthodox form of worship.
We have totally different understandings of ecclesiology and communion. An example of praxis in one cannot be used as the measure of the other. For you to co-opt a Protestant argument demonstrates just how bankrupt your own is.
 
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prodromos

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And Protestants don't even have to do that. So does that not mean that Orthodoxy is less united than Protestantism?
Orthodoxy does not practice "open communion". I know that you are aware of this so it seems you are just trying to provoke me. Fairly standard approach for someone who doesn't have a valid argument.
 
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prodromos

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Soloviev grew up in Orthodoxy.
So did Vladimir Lenin. They both left the Church. Nobody looks to Lenin as an authority on the Orthodox Church so it baffles me why you listen to anything Soloviev says.
He knows the weaknesses of it.
No he doesn't.
He sees the unity of Orthodox churches as being a fake.
He is mistaken (about many things).
He sees the need for a central magisterium.
So he should have become Catholic. There was nothing stopping him since he had already left the Orthodox Church
But you ignored the fact that Orthodoxy is on the verge of a major split. Nevermind what Soloviev said! There are numerous articles on that on the internet. And this split of far worse that any other Church splits - even within Protestantism. At least those splits are on matters of doctrine, morality, or liturgy. It is understandable to not comprise on matters of truth, or at least what you perceive as being the truth. But Orthodoxy is going to split on politics! How worldly can you get!
The Orthodox Church will outlast the ego's of a couple of patriarchs. We've had complete heretics sitting on the patriarchal thrones in the past yet our theology has remained untouched by their errors. At present there is no concelebration between Moscow and Constantinople but I am still free to commune in the Russian Church, despite being under Constantinople's jurisdiction.

Can you receive communion with the Old Catholics or the Sedevacantists?
 
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BobRyan

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We are the same Church. I can receive Holy Communion in any Orthodox Church, whether Greek or Russian or Romanian or Japanese etc. All I need to do is let the priest know in advance so that he can know who my bishop is.

I can receive communion in any Baptist or Presbyterian church (Just as they can in mine) and I don't need to let their pastor know ahead of time who my Seventh-day Adventist pastor is... that does not mean these three denominations are in fact one denomination.

I think we all knew that.

What you call communion has little in common with what we call communion.
.

You have not addressed the point above.

And your statement appears to be nonsense - since we have the consecrated unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine and we repeat the words of Christ at the last supper and "do this in REMEMBRANCE of Me" as the memorial service that Christ gave us...

And of course in all of our gatherings "where two or three are gathered in My name there I AM in the midst of them" - the real presence. Matt 18:20 in all of our gatherings.

None of the above could receive communion in an Orthodox Church. A Catholic cannot receive communion in an Orthodox Church.

No doubt -- but those orthodox members can (and do) receive communion in the churches I listed. My point is that simply having permission to receive communion is not the same thing as being the same denomination/church.

Bob
 
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prodromos

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No doubt -- but those orthodox members can (and do) receive communion in the churches I listed. My point is that simply having permission to receive communion is not the same thing as being the same denomination/church.
Your point is irrelevant in regards to the Orthodox Church.
 
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packermann

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Was it fun? ;)

But I just want you to know that just because I am having fun does not imply at all that I do not mean everything I am writing. Consider me being like Trump. He is having a lot of fun but he means what says. Only I am not orange. Friends tell me my complexion is pastey-white.
 
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packermann

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None of the above could receive communion in an Orthodox Church. A Catholic cannot receive communion in an Orthodox Church. Only Orthodox can receive communion in an Orthodox Church. In Orthodox ecclesiology, this is indicative of all Orthodox jurisdictions being one and the same Church. Since Protestants (and Catholics) do not share the same ecclesiology as the Orthodox, your argument is totally irrelevant. You may use a lot of the same words, but you understand them completely differently to us.

Rarely do I believe with a Protestant on this forum, but in this case I agree with Bob. I believe you are making a mountain out of a molehill. What's going to happen if I go to receive communion in an Orthodox Church? Are the Orthodox police going to rush in to arrest me? Nancy Pelosi can receive communion in the Catholic Church, even though she is pro-abortion. Should she? No! But can she? Yes. She does it whenever she wants. I hate to be her on Judgment Day, but right now she can and does receive Catholic communion.
 
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GingerBeer

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But I just want you to know that just because I am having fun does not imply at all that I do not mean everything I am writing. Consider me being like Trump. He is having a lot of fun but he means what says. Only I am not orange. Friends tell me my complexion is pastey-white.
Please, do not be like Donald Trump. It is not so easy to think of a worse current public figure in the USA.
 
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