The Bible has prophesied the cashless society

[Zoii]

I am so up for a chip - no more passwords, trying to hack my identity, passports - I'll take the chip please...or better still scan my retina. So much better than cards

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am so up for a chip - no more passwords, trying to hack my identity, passports - I'll take the chip please...or better still scan my retina. So much better than cards

I suspect you're putting far more faith in such a system then it would ever deserve. A microchip is not going to be anymore immune to identity theft or digital shenanigans than any other form of current tech. I'm not a Luddite, but a healthy reservation about certain uses of technology seems prudent on simply a common sense basis. A good bit of skepticism and healthy dose of cynicism is a good thing in my opinion.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Zoii]

I suspect you're putting far more faith in such a system then it would ever deserve. A microchip is not going to be anymore immune to identity theft or digital shenanigans than any other form of current tech. I'm not a Luddite, but a healthy reservation about certain uses of technology seems prudent on simply a common sense basis. A good bit of skepticism and healthy dose of cynicism is a good thing in my opinion.

-CryptoLutheran

Think of all those cards U carry around... Now you don't need to. Even if your mentally incompetent.... Scan Nanna's retina or chip.... Ok Nanna I'll take you back to your home

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

I think everybody here who is certain that it is not possible for technology to be part of the mark needs to admit that you don't know. Most folks are so in love with technology that they don't want to believe that it can ever hurt them. It's even worse with the younger generation who treat technology like it is their god. Ask them how long it is before they are away from their phone before they get nervous. To most of them it's instantly. Their device is the most important thing in the world to them. They are being indoctrinated. The mark of the Beast is not nothing. It is real. There's not a whole lot of ways the Beast can keep up from buying or selling anything unless he uses technology. If you don't think the mark involves technology and all the pieces are falling in place you will be hard pressed to find something that is a better possibility. In what other manner could the Beast stop us from buying or selling? Good luck thinking of one.

 

[awitch]

I think everybody here who is certain that it is not possible for technology to be part of the mark needs to admit that you don't know.

I know I don't believe in the beast or his marks.
Can you admit that you don't know either?

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

I know I don't believe in the beast or his marks.
Can you admit that you don't know either?

I know there is something to it or it wouldn't be in the Bible. I admit that I do not know what the mark is. I'm only speculating.

 

[Zoness]

I'm more concerned about the privacy implications rather than some vague prophecy. Because the vague prophecy doesn't offer any solutions.

The Bible should have just came out and said a zero trust blockchain was the solution to privacy problems in the cashless society. Of course the that would be applying the same incorrect analysis that the OP made in the first place.

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

I Because the vague prophecy doesn't offer any solutions.

e.

That's because there are no solutions....only choices

 

[Zoii]

I think everybody here who is certain that it is not possible for technology to be part of the mark needs to admit that you don't know. Most folks are so in love with technology that they don't want to believe that it can ever hurt them. It's even worse with the younger generation who treat technology like it is their god. Ask them how long it is before they are away from their phone before they get nervous. To most of them it's instantly. Their device is the most important thing in the world to them. They are being indoctrinated. The mark of the Beast is not nothing. It is real. There's not a whole lot of ways the Beast can keep up from buying or selling anything unless he uses technology. If you don't think the mark involves technology and all the pieces are falling in place you will be hard pressed to find something that is a better possibility. In what other manner could the Beast stop us from buying or selling? Good luck thinking of one.

I think maybe your overly concerned. I've heard lots of theories before when people get allocated a number by government of some agency. But we have all survived and progress continues. The mark of the beast could be a military uniform or a tattoo or just be a metaphor or... A possibility to accept is it's not true.

 

[Robban]

That's because there are no solutions....only choices

Choosing between cholera and pest could also be seen as a choice.

Is it not about manipulation?

I think it is.

The sea is the masses in some cases,

We are all individuals each with our own personality,

But that is quickly forgotten through clever manipulation.
Which bottoms in fear, fear of one sort or another,
Of that I am pretty sure at any rate.

It is only part of this worlds falseness.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think maybe your overly concerned. I've heard lots of theories before when people get allocated a number by government of some agency. But we have all survived and progress continues. The mark of the beast could be a military uniform or a tattoo or just be a metaphor or... A possibility to accept is it's not true.

...no, it's true. It's just a question of "what is it?"

 

[ViaCrucis]

Think of all those cards U carry around... Now you don't need to. Even if your mentally incompetent.... Scan Nanna's retina or chip.... Ok Nanna I'll take you back to your home

And when Nanna's chip is hacked and her identity is stolen? I mean, that's not going to change.

I can see how it would be a convenience, I just fail to see how it'd be any safer in terms of digital shenanigans. There's never going to be some kind of magic technology that is immune to shenanigans--there will always be shady, underhanded people who will take advantage of new technology and who can break it. Simply changing the location of the banking technology from a piece of plastic in my wallet to underneath my skin isn't going to make it any more immune to hacking, abuse, or identity theft.

-CrytpoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think everybody here who is certain that it is not possible for technology to be part of the mark needs to admit that you don't know. Most folks are so in love with technology that they don't want to believe that it can ever hurt them. It's even worse with the younger generation who treat technology like it is their god. Ask them how long it is before they are away from their phone before they get nervous. To most of them it's instantly. Their device is the most important thing in the world to them. They are being indoctrinated. The mark of the Beast is not nothing. It is real. There's not a whole lot of ways the Beast can keep up from buying or selling anything unless he uses technology. If you don't think the mark involves technology and all the pieces are falling in place you will be hard pressed to find something that is a better possibility. In what other manner could the Beast stop us from buying or selling? Good luck thinking of one.

As long as we are admitting to the possibility of being wrong, might it also be possible that your Futurist interpretation of the Apocalypse might be in error?

In this thread I'm not merely challenging the claim that the mark is a piece of technology, I'm challenging the underlying assumption of the Futurist interpretation entirely.

I maintain the position that "the beast", as St. John intended it, was about Roman imperial power, specifically the "name" which John cryptically alludes to was Nero. After the death of Nero there was a legend that Nero would return, some of Nero's supporters insisted that he had not died but had instead gone to Persia and would return with an army to reclaim the throne; others that Nero would come back from the dead. The Nero Redivivus legend makes sense in the context of the Apocalypse where St. John writes that the beast suffered a mortal wound and was revived. It is generally agreed among scholars that the Apocalypse was written during the reign of Domitian (81-96 AD) with between 90-95 AD being a common estimate (though others think it may have been during the reign of Nerva or Trajan).

Eusebius of Caesarea writes in his Church History that during the reign of Domitian an outbreak of persecution befell Christians.

"Domitian, having shown great cruelty toward many, and having unjustly put to death no small number of well-born and notable men at Rome, and having without cause exiled and confiscated the property of a great many other illustrious men, finally became a successor of Nero in his hatred and enmity toward God. He was in fact the second that stirred up a persecution against us, although his father Vespasian had undertaken nothing prejudicial to us.

It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: 'If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.' To such a degree, indeed, did the teaching of our faith flourish at that time that even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it. And they, indeed, accurately indicated the time. For they recorded that in the fifteenth year of Domitian Flavia Domitilla, daughter of a sister of Flavius Clement, who at that time was one of the consuls of Rome, was exiled with many others to the island of Pontia in consequence of testimony borne to Christ.

But when this same Domitian had commanded that the descendants of David should be slain, and ancient tradition says that some of the heretics brought accusation against the descendants of Jude (said to have been a brother of the Savior according to the flesh), on the ground that they were of the lineage of David and were related to Christ Himself." - Eusebius, Church History, Book III, ch. 17-19

Domitian also reinvigorated the Imperial Cult, having built temples to honor his brother (Titus) and father (Vespasian) as gods.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Robban]

I am so up for a chip - no more passwords, trying to hack my identity, passports - I'll take the chip please...or better still scan my retina. So much better than cards

There may be a type of AIS built in, they will always be able to keep track of you
wherever you are.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

As long as we are admitting to the possibility of being wrong, might it also be possible that your Futurist interpretation of the Apocalypse might be in error?

In this thread I'm not merely challenging the claim that the mark is a piece of technology, I'm challenging the underlying assumption of the Futurist interpretation entirely.

I maintain the position that "the beast", as St. John intended it, was about Roman imperial power, specifically the "name" which John cryptically alludes to was Nero. After the death of Nero there was a legend that Nero would return, some of Nero's supporters insisted that he had not died but had instead gone to Persia and would return with an army to reclaim the throne; others that Nero would come back from the dead. The Nero Redivivus legend makes sense in the context of the Apocalypse where St. John writes that the beast suffered a mortal wound and was revived. It is generally agreed among scholars that the Apocalypse was written during the reign of Domitian (81-96 AD) with between 90-95 AD being a common estimate (though others think it may have been during the reign of Nerva or Trajan).

Eusebius of Caesarea writes in his Church History that during the reign of Domitian an outbreak of persecution befell Christians.

"Domitian, having shown great cruelty toward many, and having unjustly put to death no small number of well-born and notable men at Rome, and having without cause exiled and confiscated the property of a great many other illustrious men, finally became a successor of Nero in his hatred and enmity toward God. He was in fact the second that stirred up a persecution against us, although his father Vespasian had undertaken nothing prejudicial to us.

It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: 'If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.' To such a degree, indeed, did the teaching of our faith flourish at that time that even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it. And they, indeed, accurately indicated the time. For they recorded that in the fifteenth year of Domitian Flavia Domitilla, daughter of a sister of Flavius Clement, who at that time was one of the consuls of Rome, was exiled with many others to the island of Pontia in consequence of testimony borne to Christ.

But when this same Domitian had commanded that the descendants of David should be slain, and ancient tradition says that some of the heretics brought accusation against the descendants of Jude (said to have been a brother of the Savior according to the flesh), on the ground that they were of the lineage of David and were related to Christ Himself." - Eusebius, Church History, Book III, ch. 17-19

Domitian also reinvigorated the Imperial Cult, having built temples to honor his brother (Titus) and father (Vespasian) as gods.

-CryptoLutheran

On the one hand, I think you're generally correct, but on the other hand, I think that the book of Revelation presents a vision which incorporates the whole span of time of the last two millennia, from the 1st century up and through our times. However, I also think the significance of the Mark of the Beast is more or less the taking on, assimilating, and approving of a materialistic, individualistic, morally self-defining, and generally anti-Christian approach to life; and this working development in the world been going on since the days of Christ Himself (and before).

However, to say that everyone in the world would wish to become like, or approve of, some kind of Neo-Nero type leadership is a bit stretched, I think. Rather, it seems to me that King Solomon, in his acquisition of a double portion of Wisdom and it's power to enable political, economic, military, and social effects of ample liberty is more reflective of the kind of cascading political context that people of the world have wanted and, especially today, seek to affect in their own lives...around the world. And it just so happens that the onset of electronic technology (and it's power of surveillance and enforcement) can play a further role in bringing about what people have been seeking since the time of the Greek and Roman empires, all of which militates against placing faith in the One whom actually does Rule the World: God in Christ through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

Even though we can't agree on what the mark might be can we agree that cash has been handed a death sentence, we just don't know when that will be? The latest I saw was in BusinessWeek magazine (12-25-17 page 25) and it is about how "Coinbase" wants to change the face of money and have the world go all digital. They're gaining a lot of traction and if they don't pull it off someone else will. Do you folks think the world will be all digital someday? I don't mean tomorrow but some year?....

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Even though we can't agree on what the mark might be can we agree that cash has been handed a death sentence, we just don't know when that will be? The latest I saw was in BusinessWeek magazine (12-25-17 page 25) and it is about how "Coinbase" wants to change the face of money and have the world go all digital. They're gaining a lot of traction and if they don't pull it off someone else will. Do you folks think the world will be all digital someday? I don't mean tomorrow but some year?....

Yes, it's possible. And if and when it does, then that will basically hand over almost every little transaction made between people, allowing for governments to keep digital tabs on every individual's line of thought. Ever see the movie, Minority Report, or the more realistically presented T.V. show, Person of Interest?

However, I think all of this Mark of the Beast stuff comes down to more than just what kind of "chips" are being served to the public ... ... it has to do mostly with where people's spiritual interests and their moral lives are invested.

 

[Zoness]

Even though we can't agree on what the mark might be can we agree that cash has been handed a death sentence, we just don't know when that will be? The latest I saw was in BusinessWeek magazine (12-25-17 page 25) and it is about how "Coinbase" wants to change the face of money and have the world go all digital. They're gaining a lot of traction and if they don't pull it off someone else will. Do you folks think the world will be all digital someday? I don't mean tomorrow but some year?....

Coinbase is just a cryptocurrency exchange. A big one, to be sure but just an exchange. You're right about cash being on its last legs, that's definitely becoming more true in many parts of the world with good electronic infrastructure and even in places where its weaker, alternative forms of payment have really sprung up. I think of Mpesa in Kenya, WeChat's payment via chat system is pretty prolific in China. Then of course Square, Venmo etc. in the US are fairly prominent among people my age.

Of course this is all a giant privacy nightmare and hopefully ushers in continued interest in zero-trust blockchain currencies like Monero and Zcash. Something will (hopefully) replace the anonymity of cash, but the technology is still in its infancy and has tremendous social acumen to acquire as well. Sure, it could be Bitcoin but the ledger by definition is psuedonymous and has a logarithmic scaling problem where it can only process 4-5 transactions per second even with thousands of nodes, which has been a nightmare for confirming transactions in a timely matter.

Anyways, yes cash will die sooner or later. I'm interested to see what replaces it to stay out of the government's gaze.

 

[Robban]

Even though we can't agree on what the mark might be can we agree that cash has been handed a death sentence, we just don't know when that will be? The latest I saw was in BusinessWeek magazine (12-25-17 page 25) and it is about how "Coinbase" wants to change the face of money and have the world go all digital. They're gaining a lot of traction and if they don't pull it off someone else will. Do you folks think the world will be all digital someday? I don't mean tomorrow but some year?....

I would love to be able to turn the clock back 50 years.

I live in an apartment block, we are mostly elderly,
Apparantly I drive them crazy,
I say to them, "it was better before,"

They put their hands to their ears and scream, "Stop, stop, we do want to hear."

Hahaha, I,m not so welcome to their coffee mornings now.

Haha.

Life is what you make it.

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

You're right about cash being on its last legs, that's definitely becoming more true in many parts of the world with good electronic infrastructure and even in places where its weaker,

Anyways, yes cash will die sooner or later. I'm interested to see what replaces it to stay out of the government's gaze.

Even if you don't believe in the mark of the Beast I think everyone agrees that a cashless society is creepy. A child born today will have every penny they ever spend recorded. Anyone who thinks cryptocurrency is private is underestimating the government's ability to outsmart them.