The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,512
7,861
...
✟1,195,415.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

I am an Abstentionist and not a Prohibitionist. While I believe that it is lawful for a Christian to drink certain alcoholic beverages soberly and so as not to make their brother to stumble, I encourage that the best option is always to abstain out of their love for God, themselves, and others because alcohol is destructive and dangerous.

In fact, a recent UK scientific study shows that even moderate use of alcohol causes the brain to shrink. So it is not this harmless thing that people are making it out to be.

Sure it may be lawful to take a bath every day in crocodile infested waters, but it would not be profitable.
 
Reactions: Edison Trent
Upvote 0

Another Lazarus

Old Newbie
Sep 19, 2013
2,717
1,050
✟49,808.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It really doesn't make any difference how many kinds of fluids can be described by the word.

God has created every fruit with goodness
But even too much of every good food is poison to our body. In this case too much alcohol is absolutely bad.

Its good to drink a little sometimes, just a little
and stay sober. it helps digestion and circulation.
But its better not to drink alcohol at all.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,512
7,861
...
✟1,195,415.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Jason getting drunk is wrong. We all get that. I think the Jews of Jesus's time knew drunkenness was sin and most avoided it.

No. Not everyone gets that drunkenness is wrong. One person said in another thread that getting drunk one time does not translate into drunkenness. Another told me that drunkenness is cold stone drunkenness (where you do not remember anything) and it is not intoxication. I have also asked the question repeatedly, Did Jesus contribute to the wedding guests in being drunk seeing John 2:10 says they were "...Well drunk..." of the wine at the wedding? Some folks did not answer me back with that question.

So okay. What is your view of what happened?
Do you believe the wedding guests were at least tipsy or well drunk at the party?
If Jesus made even more intoxicating wine, how did He not help to contribute to them not being drunk?
 
Upvote 0

Neal of Zebulun

Active Member
Oct 21, 2017
326
132
34
Texas
✟28,991.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

You should put a disclaimer in your first post that you are explicitly stating it's not a sin, but that it can lead to sinful behavior if left unchecked.

And I encourage you to start looking up the Hebrew words. There are more than enough examples in Scripture alone to show why drinking wine is not always a good thing.

The very first quote you give, Genesis 49:11 translates "wine" from [יין], the kind that gets you drunk. Wine is not the only thing that gets you drunk, for Scripture should be treated soberly as well, that is, without so much bias.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,512
7,861
...
✟1,195,415.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

I just added a disclaimer (as per your suggestion), my friend.

As for Genesis 49:11.
I believe the blood of the grape is fresh fruit juice and not intoxicating wine because the blood inside of a grape is natural fruit juice and not intoxicating wine.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Neal of Zebulun

Active Member
Oct 21, 2017
326
132
34
Texas
✟28,991.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single

You remind me of Paul concerning marriage.
1 Corinthians 7
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So okay. What is your view of what happened?
Do you believe the wedding guests were at least tipsy or well drunk at the party?
If Jesus made even more intoxicating wine, how did He not help to contribute to them not being drunk

I don't think the text of John 2 tells us the alcohol content of the wine Jesus miraculously made.

Jesus attended the wedding feast as a guest.

Jesus was sinless and would not lead anyone into sin.

We can be assured of such.

I don't think the alcohol content was strong in Jesus time. Probably enough alcohol to properly kill bacteria. Which means someone would need a vat of wine to get drunk.

That's my view.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,512
7,861
...
✟1,195,415.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

Yes, I believe the wine the Israelites purchased and stored was intoxicating wine, but when they drank it for recreational purposes, they diluted it with water so as not to get drunk off of it so easily. I believe Jesus made fresh grape juice because "yeast" is a symbol of sin according to Bible language. Yet, yeast is made in wine making. Jesus's blood is representative of the wine. So if this is the case, then it would have been impossible for Jesus to make wine that was fermented by yeast because yeast is representative of sin in Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Neal of Zebulun

Active Member
Oct 21, 2017
326
132
34
Texas
✟28,991.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I just added a disclaimer (as per your suggestion), my friend.

As for Genesis 49:11.
I believe the blood of the grape is fresh fruit juice and not intoxicating wine because the blood inside of a grape is natural fruit juice and not intoxicating wine.

Thank you! I believe that will nip in the bud a lot of resistance to what you're saying.

As regards to the blood of the grape phrase in Deuteronomy 32:14, which is the one that says "the pure blood of the grape," in the KJV, that word "pure" is actually translated from a word that literally means "something fermented (i.e. alcoholic wine)," with a verbal root meaning "to ferment, boil, or foam up." So at least in this verse, it is talking about fermented wine from the blood of the grape.

It's a different word from [יין] but it's still an alcoholic beverage. It's a poetical way of saying "wine," and is used only twice in the Bible, the other occurrence in Isaiah 27:2: "red wine."

Some good examples to go over where something really bad happens when they're drunk are Noah in Genesis 9:20-27, and Lot in Genesis 19:30-38. I'm sure there are a lot more too.

Some examples of why it's good to abstain from wine would of course be the Nazarite vow (Numbers 6:2-3), including the birth of Samson (Judges 13:1-5), and the fact that Yahweh didn't want His priests getting anywhere near Him when they had alcohol in their system (Leviticus 10:9)!

I want you to know that I responded to your thread because I was drinking a glass a wine, which is not an ordinary thing for me.

Good night, keep on fighting the good fight, and praise Yahweh!
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟119,825.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.
The bible was not written in English. English did not even exist when the bible was written. The bible does not say "wine is grape juice". That's absurd. Wine contains alcohol and always has.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GirdYourLoins

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2016
1,220
929
Brighton, UK
✟122,682.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

You've missed one very important type of wine. That is weak fermented wine. It was different to wine diluted with water and it was necessary to ferment the wine as this sterilises it making it safe to store and transport than water which will become infected far easier and cause sickness if drunk. It was similar to weak beer/ale drank in Britain and other places as a means of making water safe. With both, the flavour will change drastically if it is off so it is easy to tell if it has become infected. When Jesus and the disciples were travelling it is highly likely they would have drank this type of wine as a normal safe means of hydrating.

I see this as like money in the Bible and misunderstood by some. Having money is not the root of all eveil, it is the love of money. Drinking is not prohibited, but being a drunkard is.

As with many things, the believer should not participate in something if they have a conviction in their spirit that they should not do it. If you have a conviction not to drink, dont drink. If you have a conviction not to smoke dont smoke. If you are a glutton, dont eat too much, etc.

I have found that God often gives people a conviction to avoid things in the area they have a particular weakness. For me if a film or tv program has even a very moderate sex scene I need to avoid it. However I dont judge other Christians who are comfortable watching that as it is not an area they have a weakness in.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

GirdYourLoins

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2016
1,220
929
Brighton, UK
✟122,682.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Just to add, based on a few comments just before this one, the common types of alcoholic wine in Israel would have been as shown below. I will leave grape juice out and leave that for others to decide if they want to include it.

1. Weak fermented wine used as a daily drink that was safe and sterile. Any infection would cause off flavours allowing people to drink something they knew was safe if it tasted as it should. It was a safe alternative to water which could be stored and transported for journeys. It would be brewed with grape juice and water and was relatively cheap.

2. Strong fermented wine, sometimes called fine wine as it was produced with pure grape juice. It was more expensive so the poor often could not afford it It would have been drunk at weddings and other celebrations and by richer people.

3. Watered down strong wine. This was different to 1 as water which was not necessarily safe was added to the stronger wine. It made it more affordable and allowed it to be drunk throughout the day without getting drunk.

At least thats what I've been taught.
 
Upvote 0

fat wee robin

Newbie
Jan 12, 2015
2,494
842
✟47,420.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So you Jason have a problem with alcohol ,and in spite of your protests you wish to make anyone who has not a problem feel guilty and sinful .
This is in itself 'sinful' .
My serious problem is sugar ,especially chocolate which I eat in too large quantities for my health . Should we ban chocolate and sugar , or make it it
a 'sin' ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SBC

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2017
2,477
584
US
✟38,276.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
So okay. What is your view of what happened?

It is not about consumption as you are thinking.

It IS about consumption as in Jesus IS the VINE, and men are the BRANCHES, and from the BRANCHES that spring forth good fruit, so then is the VINE revealed.

A man must CHOOSE and SUBMIT to be a bearer of good fruit, by CHOOSING to be one of Jesus' BRANCHES. And such bearer, thus exalts and reveals the VINE, The Word of God. And such man IS submitting to change from natural to spiritual.

Matt 20
[22] But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Grape plants are not typically a common plant that Americans garden, who may not grasp the background, that would have been common knowledge, to the men in Jesus' day.
This is an interesting article about the background knowledge of the Grape Plant.
Coupled with knowledge of Scripture, you might grasp my comments.

http://winefolly.com/review/lifecycle-of-a-wine-grapevine/

God Bless,
SBC
 
Upvote 0

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,171
Florida
Visit site
✟766,603.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
In Roman era Israel they did not have the technology to bottle grape juice to prevent spoilage from bacteria. They had to ferment grape juice to preserve it. The alcohol kills bacteria that makes grape juice inedible. They made pottery vessels called amphoras to store wine. Wine contains calories and polyphenols. Wine in small quantities is harmless. Wine in small quantities may help the heart. Wine in large quantities is poison. People have different tolerances for alcohol. Alcoholics may have no alcohol and be better off than their heavy drinking. I have a habit of drinking no more than a 5 oz serving a day and a 3 ounce serving seemed fine. Too much alcohol can cause brain damage, delirium, and cancer.

The only other way they had to preserve the fruit of the vineyard for longer periods of time was to make raisins.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

seeking.IAM

Episcopalian
Site Supporter
Feb 29, 2004
4,278
4,955
Indiana
✟963,064.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Archivist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 5, 2004
17,332
6,425
Morgantown, West Virginia, USA
✟571,140.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
So according to the OP John 2 should read as follows:

On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of grape juice, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no grape juice.”

4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”

5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.

6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. 9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made grape juice, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good grape juice, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior grape juice. You have kept the good grape juice until now!”


Is it just me, or does that not make any sense?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟125,343.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private

Jason,

Nice try but it runs aground on verses such as Eph 5:18 (NLT): 'Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit' ....

Please show me how I can become drunk with grape juice.

Oz
 
Upvote 0