The benefits of socialism

[Yarddog]

I hope , since you are not new to CF that you recognize a concurring problem of a particular glitch in the system and not a case of my purposely re posting the exact same post.

Yeah, I knew what had happened. I was just messing around with that. Comparing it to the political practice of repeating things in hopes that people will believe what they hear if they hear it enough.

I challenge you to prove that assertion.

As soon as you prove yours.

 

[Tom 1]

My parents loved growing up in Yugoslavia and they told me there were absolutely no issues. The country was open to everyone and tourists, you were free to do what you wanted. Yugoslavia was also a predominately Christian nation (well a mix of catholic and orthodox church beliefs). It was quite conservative in the 20th century, and the system was communist meaning there was wealth distribution but free schooling, health care, welfare, etc. Also there were very little taxes too. Way less tax than you pay in western countries today. The people didn't need to pay taxes but the government still provided through the money they already had and instead of foolishly spending it (like America does on the military and other shady stuff) they gave it back to the people. So it was like Cuba today only way more developed and not poor or as restrictive. Taxes is really mainly used for infrastructure, not a lot is required for social programs, they just need to be smart in how they spend the money. So it did work out. But this is only what my parents told me, I don't have the full picture and I'm sure the communist government was corrupt at least behind closed doors. But the idea that every communist country was oppressive to the people is a false one, especially after speaking to my parents in what it was like growing up in communist Yugoslavia. You had more freedom of speech there to speak about biblical principles than you do in Canada today!

China today isn't communist. It is actually capitalist and free-market. It's only oppressive because it is run by one party making all the decisions so it isn't democratic. North Korea isn't communist either despite the popular belief, it is a right wing totalitarian dictatorship. There actually isn't a single communist country that still exists today. Cuba was the last one, but even Cuba is now changing.

Soviet-union was very bad, but that's mainly because Stalin was psychotic. Less to do with the principle and more to do with evil leaders.

Yugoslavia was the exception in the Eastern Bloc - Tito recognised very early on that Stalin was a nut, and he managed to navigate a path for Yugoslavia other Eastern Bloc countries, which ceded more control to Moscow, didn´t. Having a coastline on the Adriatic and hence more tourist and trade than some other countries helped also.

 

[SkyWriting]

The benefits of socialism:

1. Reduced standard of living
2. Poverty
3. Joblessness
4. Disincentives for entrepreneurship

Do I need to go on? Socialism is generally a bad thing.

You are mistaken. First you fail to define it, then misrepresent it as bad.
But LOOK UP the definition before you start.

 

[SkyWriting]

Could be one of the many roads to corruption?

Socialism =

Roads
Electricity
Food
Communication
Military protection for our country and others
and all co-ops.

The world's biggest 300 co-operatives

• [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Street_Co-op']21st Street Co-op

• , student housing co-operative in Austin, Texas
• Ace Hardware, Oak Brook, Illinois
• Affiliated Foods Inc.
• Affiliated Foods Midwest Co-op Inc.
• Affiliated Foods Southwest
• AgFirst Farm Credit Bank
• Agribank, FCB
• Ant Hill Cooperative
• Arizmendi Bakery, San Francisco, California
• Associated Food Stores
• Associated Grocers of Florida, Inc
• Associated Grocers of the South, Inc.
• Associated Grocers, Inc.
• Associated Press
• Associated Wholesale Grocers
• Associated Wholesalers, Inc.
• Audubon Mutual Housing Corporation
• Avalon Organic Gardens & EcoVillage
• Basin Electric Power Cooperative
• Belfast Cooperative Store in Belfast, ME
• Berkeley Student Cooperative
• Black Star Co-op A brewpub located in Austin, TX
• Blue Diamond Growers
• Bob's Red Mill
• Brattleboro Food Cooperative[8]
• Brown Association for Cooperative Housing
• Cabot Creamery, Vermont-based dairy marketing
• Carolina Foothills Federal Credit Union[9]
• CCA Global Partners
• Central Grocers Cooperative
• Certified Grocers Midwest
• Choptank Electric Cooperative
• CHS Inc.
• Coastal Federal Credit Union
• CoBank
• Co-operative Central Exchange
• Cooperative Development Foundation
• Dairy Farmers of America
• Dairylea Cooperative Inc.

[/URL]

 

[stevevw]

Socialism =

Roads
Electricity
Food
Communication
Military protection for our country and others
and all co-ops.

The world's biggest 300 co-operatives

• 
  
• 21st Street Co-op, student housing co-operative in Austin, Texas
• Ace Hardware, Oak Brook, Illinois
• Affiliated Foods Inc.
• Affiliated Foods Midwest Co-op Inc.
• Affiliated Foods Southwest
• AgFirst Farm Credit Bank
• Agribank, FCB
• Ant Hill Cooperative
• Arizmendi Bakery, San Francisco, California
• Associated Food Stores
• Associated Grocers of Florida, Inc
• Associated Grocers of the South, Inc.
• Associated Grocers, Inc.
• Associated Press
• Associated Wholesale Grocers
• Associated Wholesalers, Inc.
• Audubon Mutual Housing Corporation
• Avalon Organic Gardens & EcoVillage
• Basin Electric Power Cooperative
• Belfast Cooperative Store in Belfast, ME
• Berkeley Student Cooperative
• Black Star Co-op A brewpub located in Austin, TX
• Blue Diamond Growers
• Bob's Red Mill
• Brattleboro Food Cooperative[8]
• Brown Association for Cooperative Housing
• Cabot Creamery, Vermont-based dairy marketing
• Carolina Foothills Federal Credit Union[9]
• CCA Global Partners
• Central Grocers Cooperative
• Certified Grocers Midwest
• Choptank Electric Cooperative
• CHS Inc.
• Coastal Federal Credit Union
• CoBank
• Co-operative Central Exchange
• Cooperative Development Foundation
• Dairy Farmers of America
• Dairylea Cooperative Inc.

I think there’s a difference though with co-ops. They are grass roots movements that are created by enterprise and owned and run by the people who are involved and who created them. There is an agreemnet that people work together and share for the benefit of the co-op. So cooperation is key which means an individual willingness and voluntary involvement.

Whereas socialism is usually top heavy where there is a small group in charge with power controlling and dispersing the resources and its involuntary. There is little enterprise as this is restricted because it represents capitalism. You have to participate whether you want to or not. Socialism has a track record of ending up with a small number of people in control even to the point of dictatorship.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think there’s a difference though with co-ops. They are grass roots movements that are created by enterprise and owned and run by the people who are involved and who created them. There is an agreemnet that people work together and share for the benefit of the co-op. So cooperation is key which means an individual willingness and voluntary involvement.

Whereas socialism is usually top heavy where there is a small group in charge with power controlling and dispersing the resources and its involuntary. There is little enterprise as this is restricted because it represents capitalism. You have to participate whether you want to or not. Socialism has a track record of ending up with a small number of people in control even to the point of dictatorship.

So you didn't look up the definition of socialism then. That's makes it much easier to speak inaccurately.
By the way, I've lived in Milwaukee for 30 years. Arguably the most socialist city in America. I challenge people to illustrate the socialist issues they have with Milwaukee. Give it your best shot.

Milwaukee Socialism: The Emil Seidel Era | UWM Libraries
'America's Socialist Experiment' - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
Milwaukee's Long Legacy of Socialism | WTTW Chicago
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...ents-milwaukees-political-history/5258003002/
https://uwm.edu/lib-collections/mke-socialism/

 

[stevevw]

So you didn't look up the definition of socialism then. That's makes it much easier to speak inaccurately.
By the way, I've lived in Milwaukee for 30 years. Arguably the most socialist city in America. I challenge people to illustrate the socialist issues they have with Milwaukee. Give it your best shot.

Milwaukee Socialism: The Emil Seidel Era | UWM Libraries
'America's Socialist Experiment' - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
Milwaukee's Long Legacy of Socialism | WTTW Chicago

I am not sure about the history of socialism in the US as I am not from there. BUt all I know is that socialism has failed just about everywhere it has been implimented. Its one thing to have some socialist ideas/policies in among a democractic, liberal and even labor governments and economics but its another thing to have an entire socialist nation.

For starters where does the money for infrastructure come from. If there is no private enterprise or capitalism then there is no one making money and paying taxes to fund resources and infrastructure. We have tried the idea of government owned utilities and it was a dismal failure of mismangagement, debt and insolvency.

Do we force people to work for the government to build infrastructure. Does everyone then get a small wage and welfare. Where does the money come from to pay for wages and infrastructure if there is no private enterprise. If governments are not getting any reciepts then everything would be taken to its lowest denominator where people are given pitence because there is not enough to go around.

A co-op is a relatively small enterprise and usually without interference from governments. But where do you draw the line. Co-ops don't pay for infrastructure, health, education, law and order. These would have to be government owned and run and everyone would be restricted to a limited income. Still where does the money come from to pay for this unless people are forced to work and get a small return. Sounds rather Orwellian.

Socialism: The Failed Idea That Never Dies
Socialism: The Failed Idea That Never Dies

 

[SkyWriting]

I am not sure about the history of socialism in the US as I am not from there. But all I know is that socialism has failed just about everywhere it has been implemented.

So you didn't look up the definition of Socialism yet.

I live in Milwaukee and your research has failed you.
I'm trying to fix this, so you will speak as an informed person:

Socialism had a big influence on Milwaukee politics
New PBS Documentary Explores Why Milwaukee Was - WUWM
What Milwaukee Can Teach about Socialism

 

[stevevw]

So you didn't look up the definition of Socialism yet.

I live in Milwaukee and your research has failed you.
I'm trying to fix this, so you will speak as an informed person:

Socialism had a big influence on Milwaukee politics
New PBS Documentary Explores Why Milwaukee Was - WUWM
What Milwaukee Can Teach about Socialism

I am not sure what you point is. Are you saying the US and other western nations take on socialism.

 

[Albion]

I am not sure what you point is. Are you saying the US and other western nations take on socialism.

You're right to be perplexed at the reply you were given, especially because it was mainly a list of links about Socialists in Milwaukee--which in no way defines Socialism or explains Socialist governments' successes or failures.

For one thing, the last Socialist mayor of Milwaukee was over 60 years ago! And the city was never an example of Socialism, anyway, because it was not a self-governing nation and never had or was able to institute a Socialist system.

The articles mainly praise a few individuals who were identified as Socialists personally, in the manner of today's Bernie Sanders who, although an admitted Socialist himself, is not a nation or the ruler of a Socialist nation.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am not sure what you point is. Are you saying the US and other western nations take on socialism.

Here is my point:
So you didn't look up the definition of Socialism yet.
So you didn't look up the definition of Socialism yet.
So you didn't look up the definition of Socialism yet.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am not sure what you point is. Are you saying the US and other western nations take on socialism.

I'm saying Socialism is what runs the world well. Not what you've been told it is.
Have you looked up the definition yet?

 

[SkyWriting]

You're right to be perplexed at the reply you were given, especially because it was mainly a list of links about Socialists in Milwaukee--which in no way defines Socialism or explains Socialist governments' successes or failures.

Only actual socialist party members. How stupid to check on that.
And I fully admit, our Socialist experiment with school voucher's
is 20 years running and there is no measurable difference in the outcome.

But this still refutes all claims against the evils of Socialism.
As does this:
Top 100 co-operatives in the US have revenues of $228.2bn - Co-operative News.


so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

[stevevw]

You're right to be perplexed at the reply you were given, especially because it was mainly a list of links about Socialists in Milwaukee--which in no way defines Socialism or explains Socialist governments' successes or failures.

For one thing, the last Socialist mayor of Milwaukee was over 60 years ago! And the city was never an example of Socialism, anyway, because it was not a self-governing nation and never had or was able to institute a Socialist system.

The articles mainly praise a few individuals who were identified as Socialists personally, in the manner of today's Bernie Sanders who, although an admitted Socialist himself, is not a nation or the ruler of a Socialist nation.

Yes I agree and also if it was so successful and great you would think they or someone else somewhere in the US would continue to implement socialism. But it hasnt happened.

I do think there are some good aspects to socialism which I guess is already incorporated into the left side of politics like health and welfare for all regardless of income. But thats still under a broadly liberal and capitalist government that includes private enterprise and ownership.

 

[Albion]

Only actual socialist party members. How stupid to check on that.

That some people are self-professed Socialists or members of a Socialist political party or organization doesn't in any way "prove" that some government is functioning as a Socialist government.

And I fully admit, our Socialist experiment with school voucher's
is 20 years running and there is no measurable difference in the outcome.

That would be a Libertarian policy and quite the opposite of what Socialism wants for education.

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

That definition would be correct ONLY if we understand that when the words "owned...by the community as a whole," it's just Socialist propaganda.

True Socialism not only re-distributes the wealth by force but it also controls all the means of production. It does NOT allow any "community as a whole" or "the people" or etc. to dominate the economy. That's just their way of describing authoritarianism in order to make it sound more palatable.

 

[SkyWriting]

That some people are self-professed Socialists or members of a Socialist political party or organization doesn't in any way "prove" that some government is functioning as a Socialist government.

Yup. It certainly does. Your "Warning" about Socialism supposedly has some basis in fact. So including the facts of how Socialism literally works covers your issues perfectly.


When Socialism Was Tried in America—and Was a Smashing Success...
www.thenation.com › Article


Apr 2, 2019 — For much of the 20th century, Milwaukee was run by socialists—and Time magazine called it “one of the best-run cities in the U.S.”

What Milwaukee Can Teach the Democrats about Socialism
www.dissentmagazine.org › online_articles › wh...

"May 8, 2019 — Milwaukee's voters kept putting Socialists in office because they ran efficient and humane administrations. They constructed the best municipal park system in the country, preserved and created additional public access to the city’s lakefront, and constructed decent housing for working-class families. They also expanded public education for the city’s working-class children (including free textbooks, lunches, and dental and medical programs), created an adult education program for workers, expanded the public libraries and playgrounds, and improved teachers’ salaries. The Socialists adopted tough factory and building regulations and inspections, reined in police brutality against striking workers, improved working conditions for rank-and-file cops, and sponsored public markets. They gave preference to union shops for city contracts for everything from printing to horseshoeing. They forced the city’s private streetcar company to pave the streets, lower fares, improve service, and pay fees to the city in exchange for its monopoly. They opened a municipal quarry to provide crushed rock for street projects, built a municipally owned water system, and created a pioneering sanitation infrastructure, earning them the nickname “sewer socialists.”

For most of his twenty-four years as mayor, Hoan lacked a sympathetic majority on the city council. But he won over many colleagues by showing it was possible to both expand public services and balance the city’s budget. In 1932, however, voters installed a leftist majority on the council, and Hoan was emboldened. At a time when many cities resorted to violence to intimidate striking employees, Hoan pushed for a law that allowed the mayor to close any factory if the employer refused to negotiate with the workers. He asked Milwaukee’s voters to support municipal ownership of the city’s electric power system and streetcars. They rejected the idea in a referendum, but other cities around the country embraced it."

 

[tturt]

Socialism removes religious freedoms. That eliminates it for consideration.

 

[Albion]

Yup. It certainly does.

What you're saying is that if even one member of any legislative body or a mayor happens to be a Socialist himself, then by definition the entire government and the governing unit is Socialist.

As an argument, that's just a non-starter.

 

[SkyWriting]

What you're saying is that if even one member of any legislative body or a mayor happens to be a Socialist himself, then by definition the entire government and the governing unit is Socialist.

As an argument, that's just a non-starter.

Then why are you imaging it? Arguing with yourself?

I'm from Milwaukee where Socialist programs have been in place for over 20 years.
We still have one of the best Parks program's for a big city in the US.
The benefits have never stopped. Again I challenge anyone to find fault with any established Socialism in the US. Milwaukee would be your best place to start your criticisms.

 

[SkyWriting]

Socialism removes religious freedoms.

Socialisms encourages people to direct their own lives as they see it to be moral.

Socialism is a new social and economic order in which workers and consumers control production and community residents control their neighborhoods, homes, and schools. The production of society is used for the benefit of all humanity, not for the private profit of a few.
https://www.socialistpartyusa.net/principles-points-of-agreement