The benefits of socialism

[SkyWriting]

That definition would be correct ONLY if we understand that when the words "owned...by the community as a whole," it's just Socialist propaganda.

Party Platform:
https://www.socialistpartyusa.net/principles-points-of-agreement


If you want to consider what a party publishes as propaganda, you'd have to apply that to any political party or church or religion.

 

[Albion]

I'm from Milwaukee where Socialist programs have been in place for over 20 years.

There is no such thing as a partially Socialist form of government. Socialism is Socialism and has its definition. A government that runs a Post Office, for example, is not a Socialist government for that reason.

Yet that is the argument you are attempting to use. Why you avoided all mention of North Korea or Viet Nam, true Socialist states, I can appreciate, but Milwaukee (!) doesn't work for you, let alone the notion that if only one member of a governing board says he personally is a Socialist, then that whole city, state, or nation must, by definition, be Socialist. LOL

We still have one of the best Parks program's for a big city in the US.

As we were saying....

 

[Palmfever]

Margaret Thatcher once said that "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."

 

[SkyWriting]

There is no such thing as a partially Socialist form of government.

Of course there is. All governments are a blend of power and structures.
Don't be silly. In the U.S. they are considered socialistic.

Socialism is a political, social, and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and democratic control, such as workers' self-management of enterprises. ... Socialist systems are divided into non-market and market forms.

What Is Socialism?
Socialism is a populist economic and political system based on public ownership (also known as collective or common ownership) of the means of production. Those means include the machinery, tools, and factories used to produce goods that aim to directly satisfy human needs.


Communism and socialism are umbrella terms referring to two left-wing schools of economic thought; both oppose capitalism, but socialism predates the Communist Manifesto, a 1848 pamphlet by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, by a few decades.
Socialism

Elements of Socialism
While the American economy is a capitalistic one, there are also certain elements of socialism in which the government acts to ensure the welfare of Americans. For instance, there is the Social Security system that makes a payment to American workers after the age of retirement. This is based on the taxes the system had collected from them during their working years.1 And there are unemployment benefits paid to workers who lose their jobs during market disruptions. This too is funded by tax collections.2 3 There is also the government-enabled healthcare system, or Obamacare, that critics are pointing to as socialistic and un-American.4 Additionally, the government provides certain essential functions, such as national security and public education, and ensures the smooth functioning of society by governing the country, engaging in lawmaking, and penalizing those who break the laws.
Can Socialism Work in America?

 

[Albion]

Of course there is. All governments are a blend of power and structures.
Don't be silly. In the U.S. they are considered socialistic.

So, you've given up the claim of Socialism and settled for "Socialistic?" Well, that's a step in the right direction.

 

[SkyWriting]

So, you've given up the claim of Socialism and settled for "Socialistic?" Well, that's a step in the right direction.

That's the term others have invented because the entire structure of the US Government is Socialist but to say so doesn't sit well with many.

Marx claimed that socialism was a gateway drug to Communism but is was just a theory of his. It's like saying that one owner companies are the path to dictatorship nations.

But people who fear communism or any change eat that stuff up.

What Is Socialism?
Socialism is a populist economic and political system based on public ownership (also known as collective or common ownership) of the means of production. Those means include the machinery, tools, and factories used to produce goods that aim to directly satisfy human needs.

 

[Albion]

That's the term others have invented because the entire structure of the US Government is Socialist but to say so doesn't sit well with many.

Well, with that claim I can see that you aren't open to learning what Socialism is, so let's just end this and move onto something else.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well, with that claim I can see that you aren't open to learning what Socialism is, so let's just end this and move onto something else.

lol
It's not me in fear of learning. Lets stay on the topic

The benefits of socialism
Discussion in 'The Junk Drawer' started by Mountainmanbob,


Definition of socialism
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Socialism is a political, social, and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership[1][2][3] of the means of production[4][5][6][7] and democratic control, such as workers' self-management of enterprises.[8][9] It includes the political theories and movements associated with such systems.[10] Social ownership can be public, collective, cooperative, or of equity.[11] While no single definition encapsulates the many types of socialism,[12] social ownership is the one common element.[1][13][14] The types of socialism vary based on the role of markets and planning in resource allocation, on the structure of management in organizations, and from below or from above approaches, with some socialists favouring a party, state, or technocratic-driven approach. Socialists disagree on whether government, particularly existing government, is the correct vehicle for change.[8][15]

Socialist Party USA

Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Socialist Party of America History and Geography

The Socialist Party of America: A Complete History on JSTOR

Milwaukee's Long Legacy of Socialism | WTTW Chicago

 

[Albion]

Definition of socialism
1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Socialist Party USA

Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Oh sure. That's a good way to understand an authoritarian form of government--turn to the sanitized wording that SOCIALISTS and SOCIALIST ORGANIZATIONS present to the public when describing themselves. NOT!

What would you expect? That they'd put their worst face forward?

 

[SkyWriting]

Oh sure. That's a good way to understand an authoritarian form of government--turn to the sanitized wording that SOCIALISTS and SOCIALIST ORGANIZATIONS present to the public when describing themselves. NOT!

What would you expect? That they'd put their worst face forward?

Yawn...Then try the historical facts instead. You know...rubber meets the road....case studies....historical criticism...rear view mirror. Try to find anyone who is critical of what Socialism did for milwaukee.

You can complain that our socialist school voucher program has not improved our schools. But that result is universal across the US. That's why we still have the program. It didn't hurt anything in 27 years.

Do School Vouchers Work? Milwaukee's Experiment




Milwaukee Socialism: The Emil Seidel Era | UWM Libraries
uwm.edu › lib-collections › mke-socialism - The “sewer socialists,” as Milwaukee socialists came to be known, gained a reputation for their pragmatic solutions for providing basic public services such as ...


Milwaukee Sewer Socialism | Wisconsin Historical Society
www.wisconsinhistory.org › Records › Article Socialists won major elections in Milwaukee in 1910. Milwaukee became the first Socialist city in the United States. Emile Seidel was elected mayor of Milwaukee ...


'America's Socialist Experiment' - Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
www.jsonline.com › news › politics › 2020/05/26
May 26, 2020 — "Why did the socialists even came to power in Milwaukee? The city was corrupt and the city was literally filthy. They came into power promising ...


Milwaukee's Long Legacy of Socialism | WTTW Chicago
interactive.wttw.com › milwaukee-socialism
Aug 10, 2020 — Milwaukee's socialist party was rooted in a progressive German association from the mid-19th century called the Turnverein, or Turners. The ...


Socialism had a big influence on Milwaukee politics
www.wispolitics.com › socialism-had-a-big-influ...
Jan 17, 2020 — Milwaukee, the host city of the DNC Convention in 2020, has a deep history of socialism in its politics. For more than 60 years, ...

 

[Albion]

Oh, Milwaukee again supposedly defines Socialism.

Didn't you even notice, in your own choice of sources, that it's not Socialism that is being referred to but "Socialists," "a Socialist influence upon," and a local socialist party?"

 

[SkyWriting]

Oh, Milwaukee again supposedly defines Socialism.

Didn't you even notice, in your own choice of sources, that it's not Socialism that is being referred to but "Socialists," "a Socialist influence upon," and a local socialist party?"

That's what I've requested. Examples of the evils of socialism, influence on society.
Examples of evil Socialist Party influence.
Anything negative at all?

So·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

[SkyWriting]

Oh, Milwaukee again supposedly defines Socialism.

Didn't you even notice, in your own choice of sources, that it's not Socialism that is being referred to but "Socialists," "a Socialist influence upon," and a local socialist party?"

Democratic Socialists of Canada

Democratic Socialists of Canada Priorities
Legislative Victories
In our democracy, changes are made through elections. The DSC trains and supports our members to support Democratic Socialist candidates through our organizing power, regardless of political affiliation. Our members advocate for positive social change by supporting candidates who believe in democratic socialist values and are willing to challenge the current power structure, both from within and from outside, our current political party structure.

Guarantee of Basic Human Rights
Housing, education, healthcare, and healthy food to eat - are all basic human rights. Our movement believes that in a society as wealthy as ours they should be guaranteed for all of our citizens. We organize with long term strategies to reorganize our society to ensure everyone has access to these rights, regardless of means. In the short term, we fight for legislative reforms that bring us closer to the day when these concerns of survival are no longer necessary and everyone in our society has the opportunity to reach their full potential.

Canada as an Open Society
In many ways, Canada is already the first post-nationalist country in the world. Canadians come from all corners of the globe to build a better life. DSC advocates for a broader immigration platform with an open door policy for anyone who wishes to immigrate, assuming they meet security requirements for admission. Together, the DSC pushes for significant change for Canada’s economic future and for a more just world.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well, with that claim I can see that you aren't open to learning what Socialism is, so let's just end this and move onto something else.

I prefer to stay on this topic.
The benefits of socialism

 

[SkyWriting]

mention of North Korea or Viet Nam

1. Low level of obesity.
2. Low greenhouse gas emissions.
3. Low carbon footprints.
4. Low crime rate.
5. No consumerism or public advertising

• Security- it is a very safe country, crime is virtually unheard of. I've traveled all over the world and never felt safer than in North Korea. No gang violence, no drug war, no scams. No one sits in public places and worries about mass shooting or being robbed.
• Health care- Everyone in the DPRK has access to doctors and hospitals, no one is denied. The quality of care is above average for a developing country.
• Education- As mentioned in other answers and as confirmed by the UN, the DPRK has a highly educated population. Education is free and available to all. I continually was impressed with their knowledge of world affairs, philosophy, religion, literature… many spoke 2nd and 3rd languages… They value education, professors are highly regarded and given respect.
• Social connectivity- North Koreans are highly family and culturally oriented. They care about each other and are generous. The welfare of all their people is paramount, they see themselves as small country being bullied by an out of control USA. Unlike the west, elderly people are not warehoused in old people’s home but are an integral part of the culture. Young people have access to “"youth Palaces” for after school extracurricular activities.
• Housing- Everyone is provided with shelter. No homelessness, no begging, no one is dying on the streets alone due to exposure to the elements.
• Public transportation- A great network of busses throughout the country and in cities allow for mobility without much traffic and at low cost. I traveled everywhere on roads that sometimes needed repair but overall were well planned and executed.
• Food- To the disappointment of many in the west, North Koreans are not starving. Food is available and self sufficiency is a goal. Farmers are allowed to sell excess production on the free market.
• Entrepreneur- North Koreans has highly motivated individuals seeking funding for new ideas and technologies. I spoke to people creating and implementing business plans, building businesses and doing very well. All within a spirit of helping their country. Greed and selfishness is refreshingly absent.

1. Despite widespread poverty, North Korea is a very civilised nation, with a well-structured educational system and a high level of literacy.
2. North Koreans are very hygienic, which may surprise you if you compare NK with other underdeveloped or even developing countries.
3. They give an absolute priority to social bonds, toleration, and respect for elders, which they regard as civic virtues. ( Of course, these characters may, and are being, traded on by the totalitarian government)
4. North Korean folk culture is quite enjoyable; they love sports very much, music, singing and dancing. And not unlike South Korea, food in the North is quite tasty, a factor which, I think, alone could attract lots of tourists when the country reopens herself.

 

[stevevw]

I'm saying Socialism is what runs the world well. Not what you've been told it is.
Have you looked up the definition yet?

I have looked up the meaning of socialism. The problem is it has a varied meaning from non-market to market systems. Within those broad systems are a range of varying degrees of strict socialism to capitalist economic ideal. Generally speaking though most countries that have tried socialism are government ownership of resources such as electricity and power, infrastructure, telecommunications etc. like how labour party politics use to be run.

Socialist systems are divided into non-market and market forms.[16]
While retaining socialism as a long-term goal,[39][40][41][42][43] since the post-war period it has come to embrace a Keynesian mixed economy within a predominantly developed capitalist market economy and liberal democratic polity that expands state intervention to include income redistribution, regulation and a welfare state.[44]
Socialism - Wikipedia

So basically this sort of social ideals is what most political parties on the left advocate which includes a welfare state with higher taxes of the wealthier people and corporations. I don't think anyone disagrees with this approach to varying degrees. But this has been done within free market capitalism which allows people and corporations to private ownership and business enterprise to generate that capital by those individuals, organisations and corporations. Otherwise where does the money come from?

In fact according to research many countries have tried socialism and failed with nations like Great Britain, China and India being examples. But since they and most western nations have taken on free market capitalist economics the world has seen economic growth going on 60 plus years with decreasing poverty in nations like India and China.

At first, socialism seemed to work in these vastly dissimilar countries. But the government planners were unable to keep pace with increasing population and overseas competition. After decades of ever declining economic growth and ever rising unemployment, all three countries abandoned socialism and turned toward capitalism and the free market. The resulting prosperity in Israel, India, and the U.K. vindicated free-marketers who had predicted that socialism would inevitably fail to deliver the goods. As British prime minister Margaret Thatcher observed, “the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.”

According to the World Bank, more than one billion people have lifted themselves out of poverty in the past 25 years, “one of the greatest human achievements of our time.” Of those billion, approximately 731 million are Chinese, and 168 million Indians. The main driver of this uplift from poverty has been the globalization of the international trading system. China owes most of its success to the trade freedom offered by the U.S. and the rest of the world.

Economies rated “free” or “mostly free” enjoy incomes that are more than five times higher than the incomes of “repressed economies” such as those of North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba.

Whether we are talking about the actions of an agricultural country of 1.3 billion, or the nation that sparked the industrial revolution, or a small Middle Eastern country populated by some of the smartest people in the world, capitalism tops socialism every time.
Three Nations That Tried Socialism and Rejected It

I think the rise in people calling for socialism is a reaction against the failure of capitalism to achieve its promised economic utopia. But I don't think any economic system is going to do that. I think maybe a mixture of methods should be used where some good aspects of socialism ideas as well as free markets can be used. But we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water and reject free market economics altogether.

 

[SkyWriting]

But we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water and reject free market economics altogether.

The US government is entirely socialist, controlling services for the common good.
I do call for expanding free market solutions to replace for current socialist programs.
I also call for expanding socialist programs that are profit producing.

 

[Albion]

I prefer to stay on this topic.
The benefits of socialism

Obviously, you do. However, that isn't what you and I were discussing. I don't really care if you like the stereotype you hold about Socialism (or North Korea in particular). It's what Socialism actually is that you and I have fundamentally disagreed about.

By now, your definition was in error so you are left to argue tangential issues like the following--and providing charts and opinions, etc. dealing with them.

1. Telling us how wonderful Socialism, in your personal opinion, would be if it existed here.

2. Pointing to individuals who are allegedly Socialists

3. or to a Socialist "influence" acting upon something or other.

Socialism is a form of GOVERNMENT, not a political action committee or an individual who says he's a Socialist or a batch of good feelings or private businesses that choose of their own accord to sell shares in the company, etc.

The end.

 

[stevevw]

The US government is entirely socialist, controlling services for the common good.
I do call for expanding free market solutions to replace for current socialist programs.
I also call for expanding socialist programs that are profit producing.

Yet the US government allows private ownership including private health cover and the US has the largest private corporation ownership in the world which also buys into third world nations economies dominating their markets. All the opposite of socialism.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yet the US government allows private ownership including private health cover and the US has the largest private corporation ownership in the world which also buys into third world nations economies dominating their markets. All the opposite of socialism.

Socialism is not communism. Co-op ownership and control of goods and services is the definition of socialism.