The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

Eila · Oct 25, 2007

Loveaboveall said:
Eila,

I do not want to distract from the main topic of the thread but I believe David gives us a good example of how God works in us and through us to sanctify us. This is also a good question for freeindeed...

Ps 51:10-12,17 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit...The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Eila, did David have the gift of the Holy Spirit?

No, no one had the gift of the Holy Spirit before the cross. The Holy Spirit did not indwell OT saints.

Loveaboveall said:
Was David baptized in water?

No.

Loveaboveall said:
How did he recieve this without being baptized?

He was chosen and the Spirit was upon him - upon not in. The Spirit in the OT was upon chosen individuals like leaders and prophets.

Loveaboveall said:
What does it mean to be born again?

Isn't that the question I asked you? What do you believe it means to be born again?

Loveaboveall said:
How can anyone no matter the time they lived be saved without being "born again"?

If the OT saints could be born again before the cross then Jesus died needlessly.

Loveaboveall said:
Did those under what you would call the "old covenant" only have to recieve the circumcision of the physical flesh to be saved? Was there not also to be a circumcision of the heart? Is not this what it means to be born again? Is not this what baptism symbolizes?

Salvation is only possible through the shed blood of Jesus and we receive it by faith.

Loveaboveall said:
Free, If David had God's spirit why would he ask God to CREATE something in him and RENEW his spirit? If he aleady had the H.S. would not this have already been done?

David could not have been born again. The Holy Spirit did not indwell him and live inside him.

Hebrews 11 "32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.
Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

Loveaboveall said:
Is not this how God works to sanctify us? The Holy Spirit convicted David of his sin and led David to repentance. David felt the awfulness and guilt of what he had done. He gained EXPERIENCE that is to help us progress in our walk with God. We are to learn from our mistakes so that we don't make them again. God has provided a way of escape, all we must do is deny our sinful selfishness and give God the keys to our heart. With this experience David had, do you think he would go and do the same thing again?

Jesus is our sanctification. He has already sanctified us. The ministry of the Spirit changes us from immature baby Christians to mature Christians.

2 Cor 3 "17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

We are transformed by the Spirit.

Jimlarmore · Oct 25, 2007

RC_NewProtestants said:
What an amazing turn in the conversation. Now not only is the fictional sinless perfection treated as a fact which will occur but it is assumed that sinless perfection has been the norm in Christianity. Because Christians have always been the bride of Christ and a relationship with God must equal sinless perfection.

Who expects sinless perfection of their spouse. Do you still expect that after 20 years of marriage. I sure don't, to expect such a thing is set yourself up for failure which is the problem with sinless perfectionism it sets people up for failure as they realize they have not attained and yet they have people like some here saying that you must have it to have a relationship with God.

I will ask you the same thing I asked Stormy. When it comes to sexual purity don't you expect perfection and sinlessness in your spouse? If not then what you are saying is it's ok for her to go and have adulterous affairs when ever she wants to. Is that what you are intimating?

If you aren't totally surrender to God 100% of the time you are not in a relationship with God. Then you can't get away from this whole thing being works related no matter how much you say it is sinless perfection produced by God. Because the problem is me, I don't give myself over to God 100% all the time because if I did then God would make me sinlessly perfect. So I am the problem and when I can give my will over to God completely then and only then do I have salvation otherwise if I die before that mastery over my will then I will not be saved because I am still in sin and sin cannot be in the presence of God.

I am sorry for you guys but this is not a message from God and if you think that is what the Spirit of Prophecy of God has said you have destroyed the gospel. Tear those old hymns out of the hymnal "Just as I am" and "Amazing Grace". If you can't be honest with yourselves how will you ever be honest with God. You can't answer direct questions and some of you retreat to arguments of silence such as "how do you know that the disciples were not sinlessly perfect". Logically worthless arguments like "how do you know Jesus did not go to Tibet and study under the spiritual masters". Such statements when the guy who wrote the most of the the New Testament clearly says he does what he knows he should not do, that he is the worst of sinners and that he has not achieved that which he desires.

I see a lot of twisting what he says. I also see rationalization of a simple issue and by that allowing lasciviousness into the life. I too feel sorry for anyone who will make excuses for sin in their lives especially since the Lord allows us a way to escape it if we will but let Him.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

reddogs · Oct 25, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
Then why do you and several others spend so much time trying to do God's job? It's not your place to determine who does and who doesn't believe in Christ for their salvation (faith). You spend more time casting doubt about people's faith or salvation, or that they can get 'lost' over and over than you do directing people to Jesus who alone is worthy, faithful, all-powerful, and is our Savior. I just don't get it?

I am not judging, just trying to show that those that follow ungodly desires and have not the fruits of the Spirit, follow another and not Christ and certainly cannot say they 'walk face to face with God like Enoch':

A call to persevere

17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold.
18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit.
21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. 22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.
Jude 1:17-23

Luke 6:43-44 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Galatians 5:22 16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Loveaboveall · Oct 25, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
He credits us with his righteousness because of faith. Did they have faith in God?

God did not need our permission to come and save us. And he didn't come down to save us because we made a choice. We're not saved by making a 'presentation' of ourselves to God. We're not saved by 'allowing' God to do anything. So called 'free will' doesn't have a positive history with humans. Adam and Eve demonstrated perfectly what even perfect sinful humans do with 'free will'. We're not saved by 'free will'. You give humans way too much credit. I, for one, deserve absolutely NO credit for salvation. It's ALL Him. You can exercise your 'free will' and take credit for yourself, but I cannot do it. From start to finish God is responsible for my salvation. He is the author and finisher of my faith. I boast ONLY of Christ and him crucified.

Your position on grace and salvation is quite interesting... But where do you find this idea in the bible? Are you saying we do not have free will to choose Christ or Satan? Can we not help but do what we do? And once we have accepted "salvation" there is absolutely no way we can walk away from it?

interesting....

The whole point of this discussion which you and RC and others have tried to detract from is that God is able and desires to mold us into people who reflect His love to the rest of the world. How can we reflect light if we are hypocrites?

This is not about how we are saved, it is about what God CAN DO IN YOUR LIFE IF YOU ALLOW HIM TO! And yes we can accept our reject God's work in our lives and it is biblical. (Please see the letter to the 7 churches especially Laodicea. Rev 3:20) We must overcome! How? By opening the door to our heart that Jesus is knocking on! Was this a letter to heathens who did not know christ? NO it was written to the church, God's people! If Jesus is on the outside knocking, than how can He also be on the inside forcing His will on us?

Eila · Oct 25, 2007

moicherie said:
We do not make decisions with our hearts we use our minds to do that. The use of the word heart is a metaphor all the hearts does is pump blood etc, all decisions come from whats between your ears.

moicherie said:
Its called imagery, metaphor, the writers of the bible were not biologists. That is how people spoke back than and we still do it today. We say I love with our my heart rather than I love you all my mind, the former sounds more romantic. But the brain makes all decision the heart does not.

I am not talking about body parts when I mention mind and heart as our body is just a tent. I am talking about the parts of a person. The heart is referred to:

1 Peter 3 "Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God."

Eila · Oct 25, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
I will ask you the same thing I asked Stormy. When it comes to sexual purity don't you expect perfection and sinlessness in your spouse? If not then what you are saying is it's ok for her to go and have adulterous affairs when ever she wants to. Is that what you are intimating?

Maybe this is a better example: child-parent. We are the children and God is the Father. When we mess up and do what we should not we do not stop being loved and we do not stop being a child of God. But here is where it is much better. When we mess up and the Father looks at us all He sees is the righteousness of Jesus. He doesn't see our mistakes and sins. He sees the perfection of Jesus. Jesus paid for those past, present, and future sins. Not everything is beneficial and there are natural consequences from our actions, but our actions do not change the righteousness of Jesus.

freeindeed2 · Oct 25, 2007

reddogs said:
I am not judging, just trying to show that those that follow ungodly desires and have not the fruits of the Spirit, follow another and not Christ and certainly cannot say they 'walk face to face with God like Enoch':

What does that matter to those with the Spirit of Christ in them?

Who are you saying is walking face to face with God like Enoch? You?

A call to persevere

17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

Click to expand...

The key is in blue above. They DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

20But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. 22Be merciful to those who doubt; 23snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fearhating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Jude 1:17-23

Again, 'in the Holy Spirit'.

Luke 6:43-44 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.

Again, the good fruit is PRODUCED by the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

And still, all BY THE SPIRIT. We fight the good fight of faith. The Holy Spirit works in us and produced HIS good fruit. We have faith (which was also given to us as a gift).

reddogs · Oct 25, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
What does that matter to those with the Spirit of Christ in them?

Who are you saying is walking face to face with God like Enoch? You?

The key is in blue above. They DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

[/u][/color][/b]
Again, 'in the Holy Spirit'.
[/list]Again, the good fruit is PRODUCED by the Spirit.
[/list]And still, all BY THE SPIRIT. We fight the good fight of faith. The Holy Spirit works in us and produced HIS good fruit. We have faith (which was also given to us as a gift).

Yes, but those go against Christ and what he says to follow if they love Him, certainly DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:14-16 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:20-22 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

freeindeed2 · Oct 25, 2007

reddogs said:
Yes, but those go against Christ and what he says to follow if they love Him, certainly DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:14-16 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:20-22 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

And what are the commands of Christ?

Jimlarmore · Oct 25, 2007

Eila said:
Maybe this is a better example: child-parent. We are the children and God is the Father. When we mess up and do what we should not we do not stop being loved and we do not stop being a child of God. But here is where it is much better. When we mess up and the Father looks at us all He sees is the righteousness of Jesus. He doesn't see our mistakes and sins. He sees the perfection of Jesus. Jesus paid for those past, present, and future sins. Not everything is beneficial and there are natural consequences from our actions, but our actions do not change the righteousness of Jesus.

In the Bible it is God who likens Israel to His bride not me. He even instructed one of His prophets to marry a prostitute to show to us the way He looks at spiritual adultery. Sin is selfishness and spiritual adultery.

Sorry, I think that since it is a relationship with Christ that makes all the difference in salavation. Christ is returning to receive His bride and His bride needs to be spiritually pure. I don't think He will be too happy if His bride is committing spiritual adultery when He comes back.

Just as we expect literal perfection concerning sexual purity in our spouses Christ expects the same from us. Otherwise He wouldn't have told so many to go and sin no more. Sin is NOT ok with Christ and never will be.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

freeindeed2 · Oct 25, 2007

Loveaboveall said:
Eila,

I do not want to distract from the main topic of the thread but I believe David gives us a good example of how God works in us and through us to sanctify us. This is also a good question for freeindeed...

Ps 51:10-12,17 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit...The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Eila, did David have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Was David baptized in water? How did he recieve this without being baptized? What does it mean to be born again? How can anyone no matter the time they lived be saved without being "born again"? Did those under what you would call the "old covenant" only have to recieve the circumcision of the physical flesh to be saved? Was there not also to be a circumcision of the heart? Is not this what it means to be born again? Is not this what baptism symbolizes?

Free, If David had God's spirit why would he ask God to CREATE something in him and RENEW his spirit? If he aleady had the H.S. would not this have already been done?

Is not this how God works to sanctify us? The Holy Spirit convicted David of his sin and led David to repentance. David felt the awfulness and guilt of what he had done. He gained EXPERIENCE that is to help us progress in our walk with God. We are to learn from our mistakes so that we don't make them again. God has provided a way of escape, all we must do is deny our sinful selfishness and give God the keys to our heart. With this experience David had, do you think he would go and do the same thing again?

Eila's response was quite adequate and I don't have anything to add at this point. Just wanted to acknowledge your post.

In Christ alone...

Jimlarmore · Oct 25, 2007

freeindeed2 said:
And what are the commands of Christ?

The last part of Matt 19:17 Christ says "Keep the commandments" to the rich young ruler. In this we can conclude He was specifically speaking of the ten commandments because contextually He goes on to list several of them in the next verses. This kind of blows the idea of new commandments taking the place of the ten out of the water, huh?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Eila · Oct 25, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
Sorry, I think that since it is a relationship with Christ that makes all the difference in salavation. Christ is returning to receive His bride and His bride needs to be spiritually pure. I don't think He will be too happy if His bride is committing spiritual adultery when He comes back.

Just as we expect literal perfection concerning sexual purity in our spouses Christ expects the same from us. Otherwise He wouldn't have told so many to go and sin no more. Sin is NOT ok with Christ and never will be.

I don't think you can compare two humans who are married to Christ and His church. Our love does not compare to His love for us. Our good works do not compare to His goodness. We are not perfect, but He has given us a gift of His perfection. Of course we should not sin. Why should we put ourself under what we are dead to? Why give sin that power over us?

freeindeed2 · Oct 25, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
The last part of Matt 19:17 Christ says "Keep the commandments" to the rich young ruler. In this we can conclude He was specifically speaking of the ten commandments because contextually He goes on to list several of them in the next verses. This kind of blows the idea of new commandments taking the place of the ten out of the water, huh?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Was that before or after Christ's blood of atonement was shed? Hmmm...

So, what are the commands of Christ?

Eila · Oct 25, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
The last part of Matt 19:17 Christ says "Keep the commandments" to the rich young ruler. In this we can conclude He was specifically speaking of the ten commandments because contextually He goes on to list several of them in the next verses. This kind of blows the idea of new commandments taking the place of the ten out of the water, huh?

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Matthew 19 is not about the commands of Christ. Notice the commands listed in Matthew 19 are not the 10 commandments alone, but Jesus lists some of the 10 commandments along with a command from the book of the law.

Jesus was showing the rich young ruler who thought he was righteous how short he fell. Our righteousness is filthy rags. No matter how good we act or how good we seem we will always fall short of God's standard for righteousness.

RC_NewProtestants · Oct 25, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
I see a lot of twisting what he says. I also see rationalization of a simple issue and by that allowing lasciviousness into the life. I too feel sorry for anyone who will make excuses for sin in their lives especially since the Lord allows us a way to escape it if we will but let Him.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Wow if anyone need proof of the delusional view of the sinless perfectionist here it is. If you disagree with the sinless perfectionism theory then you are a allowing lasciviousness into your life. Yet all of those we have written too in this regard have sin in their lives and are no where near to sinless perfection. God allows the escape from their sin if we but let Him yet they don't let Him or they would be without sin yet those who acknowledge that they sin and are not promised sinless perfection in this life are lascivious. Mind boggling!

For those who don't know what lascivious means:

Given to or expressing lust; lecherous.
Exciting sexual desires; salacious.

Jimlarmore · Oct 25, 2007

Eila said:
I don't think you can compare two humans who are married to Christ and His church. Our love does not compare to His love for us. Our good works do not compare to His goodness. We are not perfect, but He has given us a gift of His perfection. Of course we should not sin. Why should we put ourself under what we are dead to? Why give sin that power over us?

Your not dead to it if you sin with impunity and fail to confess and repent of it. I see spiritual adultery in the new covenant as still sinning while claiming the blood of Christ. Just like comitting real adultery while being married and claiming to love your spouse is a fake love relationship and a fake claim. Harboring sin while claiming the blood of Christ is a fake love and fake relationship as well. You are right Christ does love us more than a man and a woman loves one another which makes this even more valid. The premise and validity of the comparison is appropo sister. Christ said "Go and sin no more". It is never ok to sin.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

moicherie · Oct 25, 2007

Jimlarmore said:
Your trying to base behavior on the acts of another. That is not what God wants. When is it ever ok to justify sin because someone else sinned? If we are totally committed to our spouse and love them as a husband or wife is supposed to then we will not go looking for another even if they do stray.

The point I am trying to make here is this. You can't be totally devoted to the Lord and still harbor sin in your life. Just as you can't totally love and be committed to your spouse and go out and cheat on them. Behavior DOES MATTER to us and to the Lord.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

the example used was one of a sinlessly perfect spouse no such human concept exists so whoever used it as an example is way off

reddogs · Oct 25, 2007

RC_NewProtestants said:
Wow if anyone need proof of the delusional view of the sinless perfectionist here it is. If you disagree with the sinless perfectionism theory then you are a allowing lasciviousness into your life. Yet all of those we have written too in this regard have sin in their lives and are no where near to sinless perfection. God allows the escape from their sin if we but let Him yet they don't let Him or they would be without sin yet those who acknowledge that they sin and are not promised sinless perfection in this life are lascivious. Mind boggling!

For those who don't know what lascivious means:

Given to or expressing lust; lecherous.

Exciting sexual desires; salacious.

RC,

I dont think that is a fair assessment, as I think most will agree that overcoming sin has always been a basis of Christian belief, now whether it reaches "Sinless Perfection" after 'growing in grace' is what we are discussing. As I feel that I can honestly say that most of us recognize we are all sinners still 'growing in grace', we can continue the discussion from that point. As just because we are still 'growing in grace' does not detract from what scripture says on what the result of the divine sanctification process is, which I personally believe reaches a level of "Sinless Perfection".

What we are now discussing here in my opinion is when we reach "Sinless Perfection" not if we reach it as I think everyone agrees that there will be no sin in heaven with God. So the most logical next step is if we focus on the how and when of the divine sanctification process , as we already know the end game of sin and those who cannot let go of their grip on it.

moicherie · Oct 25, 2007

StormyOne said:
it is not a side issue but it does point out something.... Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of the men's heart but that at the beginning there were NO grounds for divorce... NONE...... everyone did not know what you meant which is why I commented as I did.... the reality is that the concept of sinless perfection is flawed.... so we are at the point where I hear what you are saying, but I don't share your view....

Thanks Stormy this myth that Jesus allowed divorce for adultery is a myth.....good excuse to get rid of a wife tho ala Adventist style but I digress.

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