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No Red I don't have to agree to anything...But Stormy you have to agree that many use any excuse to chase after sin, and this is why this belief is such an issue, as many want to remain in sin yet 'claim' "Christ lives in me' ....
He gave perfect and sinless Adam and Eve so-called 'free will to choose life or death', and they chose death! Are you confident that sinful fallen natured man of his own so-called 'free will' is able to choose differently? Or is it really about Jesus being our Savior and going about his business of SAVING sinful fallen natured mankind?Christ is our creator and gave us an intelligence and free will to choose life or death.
I don't know ANYBODY that has the Spirit (God HIMSELF) living IN them that 'chases after sin'. Making this claim is accusing God of leading belilevers to sin! Maybe some of you know people who have God living IN them that do so, but I know of NO ONE!But Stormy you have to agree that many use any excuse to chase after sin, and this is why this belief is such an issue, as many want to remain in sin yet 'claim' "Christ lives in me' ....
I don't know ANYBODY that has the Spirit (God HIMSELF) living IN them that 'chases after sin'. Making this claim is accusing God of leading belilevers to sin! Maybe some of you know people who have God living IN them that do so, but I know of NO ONE!
And YOU are able to discern that what they say is only a false 'claim'? YOU know their hearts? YOU are in a position to make this judgment?I bump into them everyday who 'claim' they follow Christ and tell others they love Christ and 'prophesied in thy name', who chase after and hold onto hate, evil, sexual sins, hypocrisy and iniquity.... with a 'death grip'....
Whose fruit is it again? I know the good fruit that is produced BY THE SPIRIT. What is the 'good fruit' man produces?Matthew 7:16-23
16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Yes. These are the ones who want their own efforts to count for something. The ones who believe they play a part (at least) in saving themselves.22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
'These sayings of mine' = Jesus' teachings24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And you are the one who is able to judge who is and who isn't righteous?Matthew 23:28
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
And the 'good nature' of humanity does this with God as his 'helper'?2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
No Red I don't have to agree to anything...
Many have used this issue of sinless perfection to justify their warped view of salvation by performance.....
my opinion, I expressed it, just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it has never happened.... I did not accuse anyone of anything..... yet... neither have I assumed anything.... reread my comment.... I said many have used.... I did not say "many here have used." There is a significant difference.... if you feel you don't fit the category then I am not referring to you....I haven't seen one person even hint at "salvation by performance"! Where do you get that idea from, because no one here has said anything close to that?
Just because there WILL be a people who at the end of time will perfectly reflect the character of Christ does not mean that all who don't won't be saved. And it doesn't mean that they will be saved BECAUSE of they will keep the commandments of God.
Could you please stop with your false acussations and assumptions?
it is telling that with all that I have said, you have the perception that I am saying people can sin to their hearts content.... I have not suggested that, nor is that what I believe.... however in the end it is God's call, and thankfully He is just....
Interesting however that is not my view, nor my philosophy of truth. Truth to me is embodied in Christ, thus it is not a philosophy but the God who saves and perfects us..... the bible makes it clear, Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.Nor have I accuse you of that brother. I am not just speaking to you when I post but to those who lurk and are sitting in the valley of decision as to what is truth or not. I used to be baptist where the belief of once saved always saved is very strong ( especially southern baptist) . In this belief they think you can sin with impunity after being saved and still remain saved no matter what you do.
The deception of OSAS starts out with the exact same philosophy of truth you have on grace and then goes on to an extreme level that leads one right back into sin again. Actually if you think about it's a masterful deception that satan has propagated here. One that is not only full of truth but tends to play right into the human nature we all have.
God Bless
Jim Larmore
I will refer back to the OP as 'salvation by performance' is not what this thread is about.
"...building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.
1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.
2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.
3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.
4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.
'Salvation by faith in Christ' who brings us close and away from sin and then the Holy Spirit does its work is totally scripturally supported and what I believe...
Man does not 'achieve' anything relating to righteousness at any time. If he has righteousness it is ONLY because it has been credited to him through faith. Jesus IS our righteousness.I will refer back to the OP as 'salvation by performance' is not what this thread is about.
"...building blocks of belief we will use in this thread.
1) Man (sinful humans) on his own cannot achieve righteousness.
This will happen ONLY when we are rid of these corruptible bodies and given incorruptible bodies.2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.
Same as number 2. And perfect sinless Adam showed all of humanity what human 'free will' does.3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.
Which is why we need a perfect Savior, a perfect Substitute. We are declared perfect, righteous, and holy ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ.4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.
'Salvation by faith in Christ' who brings us close and away from sin and then the Holy Spirit does its work is totally scripturally supported and what I believe...
Interesting however that is not my view, nor my philosophy of truth. Truth to me is embodied in Christ, thus it is not a philosophy but the God who saves and perfects us..... the bible makes it clear, Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us. 2 We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, the champion who initiates and perfects our faith.
Paul says lets lay aside the sins that beset us and he tells us how that is done, by focusing on Jesus the author and perfector of our faith..... that much is clear to me....
Man does not 'achieve' anything relating to righteousness at any time. If he has righteousness it is ONLY because it has been credited to him through faith. Jesus IS our righteousness.
This will happen ONLY when we are rid of these corruptible bodies and given incorruptible bodies.
Same as number 2. And perfect sinless Adam showed all of humanity what human 'free will' does.
Which is why we need a perfect Savior, a perfect Substitute. We are declared perfect, righteous, and holy ONLY through faith in Jesus Christ.
when you say that I suspect it means something different than when I say that...If Jesus does perfect you, He will cleanse you from all sins. If you let him that is.
when you say that I suspect it means something different than when I say that...
Again, how are YOU able to discern who is a true believer and who is not? Are you able to read their hearts?Which is why no one can serve two 'masters' and chase after sin and love sin and hold on tight to sin as many who 'claim' they follow Christ do.
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