The belief “God having perfect complete foreknowledge” called Open Theism?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Well, no, we will not, because we won't be God.

This is certainly true, because you've committed yourself either to a heresy (that God had a beginning) or to a logical impossibility (that an entity living in time could wait for an infinite period of time and then do something).

I never said that God had a beginning. We are not told what God was doing before He created the universe. Therefore we don't know. We don't have the mental capacity to be able to know. God has revealed just enough about Himself to know who He is, and what He has planned for us. Paul says that we see, as in a mirror, an imperfect image, but there will come the day when we will know as we are known.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God exists outside of Time, and as such, all is in present tense to Him, as he knows and sees all as being done right now to Him!

That is just philosophical conjecture and not how the Bible describes God. You are correct that He knows all that is knowable right now, because that is His omnicience. But to say that He exists in an ever-present stage is just nonsense, and anyone with a brain will realise that we can never fellowship with Him if He is like that. The Bible says that we do have fellowship with the Father and the Son, so we can walk with Him and talk to Him. He is depicted in the Bible as having a past, present and future. That is the way that He has been revealed to us in the Bible. Everything else is just imaginary speculation about what God might be like. I think that God's response to those trying to work out what He is like other than what He has revealed to us in the Bible, would be: "Mind your own business and get on with following Jesus!"

 

[bling]

This by definition is not open theism. To often folks here are inconsistent and lean towards liberal theology, so if you say something they don't like its automatically wrong.

That might have happened.

 

[YeshuaFan]

That is just philosophical conjecture and not how the Bible describes God. You are correct that He knows all that is knowable right now, because that is His omnicience. But to say that He exists in an ever-present stage is just nonsense, and anyone with a brain will realise that we can never fellowship with Him if He is like that. The Bible says that we do have fellowship with the Father and the Son, so we can walk with Him and talk to Him. He is depicted in the Bible as having a past, present and future. That is the way that He has been revealed to us in the Bible. Everything else is just imaginary speculation about what God might be like. I think that God's response to those trying to work out what He is like other than what He has revealed to us in the Bible, would be: "Mind your own business and get on with following Jesus!"

God has no future,as He is eternal Now, as He already knows fully the beginning and the end!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God has no future,as He is eternal Now, as He already knows fully the beginning and the end!

Show me any Scripture that says that! Come on! Quote any reference that says plainly that God is in the "eternal now". And don't quote some random verse out of context. I want to see God saying it plainly and clearly.

 

[Radagast]

Show me any Scripture that says that! Come on! Quote any reference that says plainly that God is in the "eternal now". And don't quote some random verse out of context. I want to see God saying it plainly and clearly.

It's logically impossible for God to have waited an infinite amount of time and then created the universe, so if God is "in time," He must Himself have had a beginning (which is a heresy).

Therefore God is not "in time."

 

[Pneuma3]

It's logically impossible for God to have waited an infinite amount of time and then created the universe, so if God is "in time," He must Himself have had a beginning (which is a heresy).

Therefore God is not "in time."

And it is logically impossible for God to be omnipresent and not be in time

 

[Pneuma3]

Show me any Scripture that says that! Come on! Quote any reference that says plainly that God is in the "eternal now". And don't quote some random verse out of context. I want to see God saying it plainly and clearly.

Agreed. What the heck is an "eternal now"? If everything is an eternal now then there is no past, or future. there is just now

 

[Radagast]

And it is logically impossible for God to be omnipresent and not be in time

No, that doesn't follow at all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Agreed. What the heck is an "eternal now"? If everything is an eternal now then there is no past, or future. there is just now

Some people think that God lives in an ever present state and so He can go back into the past and the future at the same time in the sense that there is no continuum of events with God and therefore makes him in every place in time all at once.

My view is that "now" is the only reality, and that might agree with your view. The past only exists in our memories and what we have recorded on audio or video. We can watch movies made in the 1950s, but we can't go back there and be part of that socieity because it belongs in the past.

We cannot go into the future, because it does not exist yet. It is being created by the decisions we make in the "now". Even when I started typing, that is now in the past, and what I will type will be in a new "now" as I type it. I don't know what I will type in the future, because I haven't decided what to type yet.

I believe that God is the same. He is also in the "now" just like us. The past is the same for Him, except His memory is greater than ours and it won't fade. But His future doesn't exist yet, because it is created by the decisions He makes in response to ours, and how He implements His plans and purposes for us.

What I am saying is that once the past is past, God does not go back in time to change it, because it does not exist any more except in His memory. He works in the "now". He cannot go into the future because it does not exist yet. He can influence the future through how He works out His plans during each new "now" that is travelling along the continuum of events.

There is absolutely no reference in the Bible that God lives in a state where the past, present and future are all one for Him, so that He can go back into the past and go forward into the future. The "now" is exactly the same in Heaven as it is here on earth.

This is the greatness of fellowshiping with God and with Jesus. We can fellowship with Him in the "now" and during each new "now" that develops along the continuum of events.

 

[Pneuma3]

No, that doesn't follow at all.

then you must have a different definition then everyone else.

 

[Pneuma3]

Some people think that God lives in an ever present state and so He can go back into the past and the future at the same time in the sense that there is no continuum of events with God and therefore makes him in every place in time all at once.

My view is that "now" is the only reality, and that might agree with your view. The past only exists in our memories and what we have recorded on audio or video. We can watch movies made in the 1950s, but we can't go back there and be part of that socieity because it belongs in the past.

We cannot go into the future, because it does not exist yet. It is being created by the decisions we make in the "now". Even when I started typing, that is now in the past, and what I will type will be in a new "now" as I type it. I don't know what I will type in the future, because I haven't decided what to type yet.

I believe that God is the same. He is also in the "now" just like us. The past is the same for Him, except His memory is greater than ours and it won't fade. But His future doesn't exist yet, because it is created by the decisions He makes in response to ours, and how He implements His plans and purposes for us.

What I am saying is that once the past is past, God does not go back in time to change it, because it does not exist any more except in His memory. He works in the "now". He cannot go into the future because it does not exist yet. He can influence the future through how He works out His plans during each new "now" that is travelling along the continuum of events.

There is absolutely no reference in the Bible that God lives in a state where the past, present and future are all one for Him, so that He can go back into the past and go forward into the future. The "now" is exactly the same in Heaven as it is here on earth.

This is the greatness of fellowshiping with God and with Jesus. We can fellowship with Him in the "now" and during each new "now" that develops along the continuum of events.

I fully agree Oscarr. The reason God knows the future is not because he lives in the future it is because He is the great architect and WORKS to bring every part of His grand plan together. God simply knows everything that HE is going to do and as nothing can stay His hand He knows the END because He had it all planned out in the BEGINNING.

 

[Radagast]

then you must have a different definition then everyone else.

Christian orthodoxy teaches that (1) God is omnipresent and (2) God is outside of time, which is exactly what I'm saying.

You, on the other hand, appear to be teaching open theism.

 

[Radagast]

My view is that "now" is the only reality, and that might agree with your view. The past only exists in our memories and what we have recorded on audio or video. We can watch movies made in the 1950s, but we can't go back there and be part of that socieity because it belongs in the past.

We cannot go into the future, because it does not exist yet.

This is heavily debatable on philosophical, theological, and scientific grounds.

I believe that God is the same. He is also in the "now" just like us.

And this is open theism.

Also, it's logically impossible for God to have waited an infinite amount of time and then created the universe, so if God is "in time," He must Himself have had a beginning (which is a heresy).

 

[Pneuma3]

Christian orthodoxy teaches that (1) God is omnipresent and (2) God is outside of time, which is exactly what I'm saying.

You, on the other hand, appear to be teaching open theism.

Just because orthodox teaches something does not mean they are correct. and you did not address your illogical conclusion that God is not in time and yet is omnipresent.

 

[Bobber]

It also logically follows: if the existence of God at the end of time communicates to himself at the beginning of time all human history as set in stone, does not mean some human choices made could not be autonomous free will choices by the human.

So am I correct to assume you're advocating a time travel of sorts? You say "communicates" to himself and that requires a process of at a certain "time" (if we might call it) not knowing something to a time where it could be said that he did know it all the time depending on how one looks at it or chooses to express it.

 

[Bobber]

This is worse than science fiction. It is science fantasy. In eternity, time is still a linear process of one event following another. The past is past, the present is present, and the future is still to come. In eternity, there is no need to measure time because it will never end.

Not sure I get this. You say in eternity there's no need to measure time. I mean what can this mean. In Rev we see saints in Heaven have experience which have sequence. Rev 6:10 This happens, that happens and then this. For example....maybe my illustration of what heaven is like is too earthly and compared to how we know things....but let's say we're in one place of heaven worshiping God. Yes we'd do that forever but things which take place in "real time" have duration. To put it simply we're worshiping at the throne of God but we also go over to a friends mansion for a time of fellowship. How could there not be some indication of the time arrived of each place. Wouldn't that be said to me a measuring of time?

 

[Bobber]

Time is not absolute. Check out relativity.

Can you in one paragraph of words maybe describe what you're meaning. I understand about two observers one going near the speed of light to an earthly observer it looks like the other is going in slow motion and to the SOL observer (or near speed of light) the earth person appears speeding up but what do you mean "time is not absolute"?

 

[bling]

I was just stating a scientific fact.

Special relativity implies determinism, and hence no free will of the libertarian kind, unless perhaps you believe in infinitely many parallel universes.

No it does not, lots of atheist believe in special relativity without believing in determinism or the lack of free will. You also do not have to believe in an infinite number of universes. It all goes back to who "determined" the free will choices, you will do: tomorrow. The who is/was you.

 

[bling]

Your list was very long. i only had time to look at Items 1-6. Yes of course God exists outside of our time. God cannot possibly be subjected to the time that we obey, orherwise He would be mortal.

I did not read your points about Man and Free Will. Free will, and God's knowledge of our destiny, is a hotly-debated subject. I dont see how any theologian can claim to have a perfect understanding of this topic.

Most of what we say about space-time today is psychobabble. I am a scientist (yes I understand Einstein's theories), and that is a reasonable statement. Our knowledge of the Universe is in its infancy. We have got a looooong way to go. Newton and Einstein were not wrong, but neither did they write the whole story.

For you personally, one simple question. Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior? It all boils down to this one issue.

OK and yes Jesus is my Lord and Savior.