The belief “God having perfect complete foreknowledge” called Open Theism?

[bling]

Time in its absolute sense is merely one event following another. In Heaven, it has no beginning nor end. But without a series of events, nothing, including God could exist..

The GPS satellites have their clocks sped up synchronize with clocks on earth in keeping with the relativity of time. Why would “nothing including God could exist” without time? Some of the latest quantum theories do away with space.

If we accept that God lives in a state where one event follows another, then to say that He is out of that, is a philosophical and science fiction concept, not a Biblical one..

We do not know how the spiritual universe works.

I don't know what you mean by that..

Man’s sequencing of events might all be I God’s present time.

This is pure science fiction..

Whether it sound “logical” to you right now or not is not in question, the question is: does it contradict scripture, is it Open Theism, and could it be possible. Lots of ideas thought to be “pure science fiction” have been shown to be true?

It is just as much science fiction to believe God knows what is going on earth and on a galaxy a billion light years away at the same time.

If you start with time being relative and add God being outside of human time it can fit logically. What does God being outside of time mean to you?

This is worse than science fiction. It is science fantasy. In eternity, time is still a linear process of one event following another. The past is past, the present is present, and the future is still to come. In eternity, there is no need to measure time because it will never end..

Do you believe the future “still to come” is unknown, unknowable, completely planned out by God (following God’s script) or what?

Again we do not know how things work in the spiritual realm, but science have shown how gravity effects time warping the space/time continuum. It is not science fantasy to consider wormholes as real possibilities where information could travel from one time period to another. I am just using that theory as a possible explanation for God knowing future events.

There is a problem about that because the future doesn't exist yet. It is formed on the decisions we make and events that result from it. A future that exists belongs with science fantasy. God appears to know the future, because He is planning for those events to happen and He will bring them to pass..

Again there are scientific theories, saying the same thing about time, so it is not beyond imagination. Is it beyond what scripture could say or does it contradict scripture?

Past history cannot be changed because it has already happened. No one can go back in time to change it. That concept is also science fantasy..

God himself would be scientific fantasy since God is not something scientific.

This is descending into gobbledygook!.

You have to think about it.

Doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like Leslie Neilsen in his comedy book describing the great films he was never in, as part of his extensive film career. What you seem to be saying is that things that were never created still exist somewhere in some parallel universe!.

No, but thanks for trying.

God knows all the possibilities of choice and His guidance is dynamic, based on the choices we make.
.

That really sounds a lot like Open Theism.
]

The simple answer is to go back to the Bible and stick to what it says about the nature and character of God, and filter out the confusion of science fiction and fantasy that is mixed with your thinking.

Since God is outside of science and is thus science fiction, my ideas are in good company.

 

[bling]

Has God existed eternally, "before" anything else, angels, satan, Universe etc?

I would say: "yes", but there is a real problem putting God in time think about this: If there is a infinite amount of time before God made humans than humans were never made since a infinite amount of time has not past.

 

[bling]

Time is not absolute. Check out relativity.

That is what I am saying.

 

[bling]

Nothing here looks at all like Open Theism to me. Bits and pieces of it look almost scholastic. Maybe you got too abstract with it and someone got confused and misread it?

Thank you. It might be more they did not like what I said.

 

[bling]

I agree with all of your points, but I believe in predestination. If you think that a man's autonomous free will negates predestination, then I would suggest that what you've listed here defies that notion. God, knowing in infinite detail what will happen and how to get there, and having the power to make it happen, can make the desired outcome without overriding a person's will. You can't lay all of that out on the table as you just did and suggest that God isn't in full control of the outcome.

Anyway, it isn't open theism. There was probably something in the way you said it that confused a moderator, and nothing more.

The main thing is it is not Open Theism.

 

[bling]

Although I might have worded somethings differently, I don't see any really major issues with the OP.

Thank you

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The GPS satellites have their clocks sped up synchronize with clocks on earth in keeping with the relativity of time. Why would “nothing including God could exist” without time? Some of the latest quantum theories do away with space.

This has to do with the measurement of time and keeping clocks synchronized with the rotation of the earth and its orbit around sun. That's how time is measured.

We do not know how the spiritual universe works.

The Bible does not mention a spiritual universe. That is a Greek pagan concept. The Bible speaks of Heaven where God lives and earth where we live. Nothing more. The rest is speculation.

Man’s sequencing of events might all be I God’s present time.

The sequencing of events exists the same in Heaven as it is on earth. It is a linear continuum. In Heaven the continuum is not measured. Before the universe was created, there were no revolving planets and no orbits of planets around stars, so the measure of time in hours, weeks, months, and years was not a concept at all. But past, present and future were. God and the angels have a memory of the past, they are aware of what they are doing in the present, and they look forward to what they are going to do in the future. If this was not the case, nothing could exist. It would all be just static, with no movement. For movement of any kind, there has to be a past, present and future. God is not some strange and weird science fiction character.

Whether it sound “logical” to you right now or not is not in question, the question is: does it contradict scripture, is it Open Theism, and could it be possible. Lots of ideas thought to be “pure science fiction” have been shown to be true?

Nowhere in the Bible does it even suggest that God lives in an ever-present state.

It is just as much science fiction to believe God knows what is going on earth and on a galaxy a billion light years away at the same time.

It is consistent with what the Scripture says about God. He is omnipresent and omnicient. Therefore He very well can be in all parts of the universe at once and can know everything that is happening everywhere.

If you start with time being relative and add God being outside of human time it can fit logically. What does God being outside of time mean to you?

God lives in Heaven and there is no measurement of time there. That is the only sense where God is outside of our system of time measurement. But He is co-existing with us. The creation of the universe was at a particular time in His past and in ours. Our measurement of time started when the earth started revolve and orbit the sun. When I was converted to Christ on 30 October 1966, He was aware of that date also, because He knows how world time is measured, and that date is in His past. Tomorrow morning at 9am will be in my future and His also.

Do you believe the future “still to come” is unknown, unknowable, completely planned out by God (following God’s script) or what?

God has a plan which He put together before the foundation of the world. That plan is still being worked through. The plan is not a script, because that would take free choice away from people. Although God has not changed the direction and objectives of His plan, He has had to change some of the details in which the plan has been implemented. There is coming a time when Christ will return and the world, as we know it will be wound up. He is working on setting up the conditions for that to happen. He has not decided exactly when that will happen. Jesus said only the Father knows. Jesus doesn't even know when He will be returning. This is completely in the hands of the Father, and Jesus will be told when the Father decides when it will happen.

If Jesus is in Heaven with the Father, and if they are living in the ever-present, then what I have just said would be absolutely impossible.

Again we do not know how things work in the spiritual realm, but science have shown how gravity effects time warping the space/time continuum. It is not science fantasy to consider wormholes as real possibilities where information could travel from one time period to another. I am just using that theory as a possible explanation for God knowing future events.

That is total speculation. Nothing has been discovered to support it. We don't even know whether gravity actually warps the space/time continuum. Anyhow, out in space, how can we measure time when the only measurement we have is to do with the rotation of the earth and the earth's orbit around the sun?

If a space ship is travelling in deep space and all the clocks on it failed and communication with earth is lost, then it will be impossible to measure time. There will be no night or day in space.

On other planets of the solar system, days and years become totally different to what they are on earth. For instance, it takes more than a lifetime for a year on Pluto.

But the travellers on the space ship would still be doing things, and even though they have lost the concept of time measurement, they would still be conscious of the passing of time, but they won't know how much time is elapsing.

Again there are scientific theories, saying the same thing about time, so it is not beyond imagination. Is it beyond what scripture could say or does it contradict scripture?

In Revelation it says that there was silence in Heaven for half an hour. If Heaven, where God lives, does not have the continuum of time, how could that be?

God himself would be scientific fantasy since God is not something scientific.

But the Bible presents God as a real living Person and we are created in His image. So, I am not sure what God you are referring to, but it does not seem to be the Living God of the Bible.

 

[Radagast]

No it does not imply a radical determinism, scientist who accept the possibility do not all believe in God nor do they feel it proofs there is a God, and because some individual free will choice could be part of the block.

I was just stating a scientific fact.

Special relativity implies determinism, and hence no free will of the libertarian kind, unless perhaps you believe in infinitely many parallel universes.

 

[Radagast]

But without a series of events, nothing, including God could exist.

This is an unorthodox statement. Traditional Christian theology says that God created time, and God is outside time.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This is an unorthodox statement. Traditional Christian theology says that God created time, and God is outside time.

But the Bible doesn't say it at all. God, in creating the earth and the sun created the measurement of time. And it is the measurement of time that makes us aware of time.
When we get to eternity, we won't be aware of time because it will be endless, and therefore there will be no need to measure it. Who cares whether we will be in Heaven for 10,000 years or 10,000,000 years? Will there even be days, weeks, or years? We don't know.
But in eternity there still has to be a continuum, whether we call it time or something else.

 

[NW82]

This by definition is not open theism. To often folks here are inconsistent and lean towards liberal theology, so if you say something they don't like its automatically wrong.

 

[Foxfyre]

"It" doesn't work.

The Spirit is not understandable to the carnal mind or natural mind of man.

Or, in my opinion, even fully knowable and/or understandable to the fully yielded devout believer.

In Spielberg's movie "Always", the newly 'dead' pilot, Pete, is shepherded through his early angelic life by Hap. And as they move seamlessly back and forth in time, Hap explains that "time is funny stuff." The movie is pure fiction of course, but I like to think there is a grain of inspiration in that concept and that is probably how it really is. If Einstein was correct, time is not the fixed thing that we normally perceive and use for our purposes, but it is far more complex.

Since I believe in prophecy, I have to believe there is foreknowledge. But if everything is already destined from the beginning to the end; i.e. everything we think, believe, speak, do is already known, then there is no purpose. No point in going through all this. We are simply puppets acting out what was designed for us in some massive cosmic scheme. And I cannot believe that is the way it is.

I believe God knows my ultimate destiny in fate, for better or worse, good or bad, if I continue with my current thoughts and choices. But I have to believe the Scriptures that choosing to speak, think, pray, do differently will produce a different outcome. And I don't think any known understanding of physics or any other concept of science can address that phenomenon because God is so much larger, so much more than anything any of us can comprehend.

So I am content that I don't fully understand how it all works. I just believe God loves me and is with me and accept that some things we won't understand now and trust God to work out the details.

 

[gideon123]

Your list was very long. i only had time to look at Items 1-6. Yes of course God exists outside of our time. God cannot possibly be subjected to the time that we obey, orherwise He would be mortal.

I did not read your points about Man and Free Will. Free will, and God's knowledge of our destiny, is a hotly-debated subject. I dont see how any theologian can claim to have a perfect understanding of this topic.

Most of what we say about space-time today is psychobabble. I am a scientist (yes I understand Einstein's theories), and that is a reasonable statement. Our knowledge of the Universe is in its infancy. We have got a looooong way to go. Newton and Einstein were not wrong, but neither did they write the whole story.

For you personally, one simple question. Is Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior? It all boils down to this one issue.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Since I believe in prophecy, I have to believe there is foreknowledge. But if everything is already destined from the beginning to the end; i.e. everything we think, believe, speak, do is already known, then there is no purpose.

oops....
Yahweh's Word, Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus is Perfect, Complete, and Nothing Lacking. His Plan is totally right and RIGHTEOUS, HOLY and MERCIFUL.

Yahweh even made it simple. (as like for little children)

Who came up with many falsehoods ?

 

[Foxfyre]

oops....
Yahweh's Word, Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus is Perfect, Complete, and Nothing Lacking. His Plan is totally right and RIGHTEOUS, HOLY and MERCIFUL.

Yahweh even made it simple. (as like for little children)

Who came up with many falsehoods ?

I don't disagree. But I was arguing a completely different point unrelated to that.

 

[Radagast]

But the Bible doesn't say it at all. God, in creating the earth and the sun created the measurement of time.

Christians have traditionally read the Bible as saying that God created time as well (see Augustine, for example).

The alternatives would be (1) the heresy that God had a beginning, or (2) the rather strange and self-contradictory idea that God waited an infinitely long period of time before creating anything.

Who cares whether we will be in Heaven for 10,000 years or 10,000,000 years?

Well, I do. We either have eternal life, or we don't.

But in eternity there still has to be a continuum, whether we call it time or something else.

Not for God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Christians have traditionally read the Bible as saying that God created time as well (see Augustine, for example).

The alternatives would be (1) the heresy that God had a beginning, or (2) the rather strange and self-contradictory idea that God waited an infinitely long period of time before creating anything.
Well, I do. We either have eternal life, or we don't.
Not for God.

It's amazing that people dream up all sorts of crazy ideas about God, which the Bible never mentions.

What I was saying about how long we are going to be in Heaven, I didn't say that we were not going to be there for eternity. What I was saying is that we wouldn't have the need to measure time there because there is no point. We only measure time because we had a beginning to life and will have an end.

When we get to Heaven, we will be where God is, and if He lives in some sort of weird ever-present state, so will we. And that is totally stupid, because if that is so, we would be frozen in one spot, just like a photograph. We wouldn't be able to do anything or go anywhere, because there would not be a continuum of motion.

I guess some people just deactivate their brains when they start thinking about God.

 

[Radagast]

When we get to Heaven, we will be where God is, and if He lives in some sort of weird ever-present state, so will we.

Well, no, we will not, because we won't be God.

I guess some people just deactivate their brains when they start thinking about God.

This is certainly true, because you've committed yourself either to a heresy (that God had a beginning) or to a logical impossibility (that an entity living in time could wait for an infinite period of time and then do something).

 

[YeshuaFan]

If you are talking about Einstein's theory of relativity, it remains a theory. It has not been proved.
Time in its absolute sense is merely one event following another. The Bible describes time like that in Heaven as well as in earth. We measure time because for us time is finite. For us there is a beginning, a middle, and an end to our time in this world.

If we lived in eternity where there was no beginning or end of time, then we wouldn't see the need to measure it because we wouldn't need to know how long we have been alive, and how much longer we have to live.

It is a Biblical concept that God is aware of the past, the present, and what He is planning for the future. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible where it says that God lives in an ever-present state simultaneously living in the past, present, and future at the same time. If that was so, He couldn't exist. He would be frozen, just like a snapshot photo.

There is no proof that time can be changed by travelling through space faster than the speed of light.

God exists outside of Time, and as such, all is in present tense to Him, as he knows and sees all as being done right now to Him!

 

[aiki]

1. Time is relative, God could have created the existence of time for humans, and God is not limited by man’s time.

God did (as opposed to could have) create time. Modern, mainstream science indicates pretty clearly that at a finite point in the past, time, space, matter and energy came into being and formed the universe. Christian cosmology attributes this occurrence to God, the Uncaused Cause, the Creator of the Universe.

2. God exist outside of human time, yet exist simultaneously within human present time.

This seems possible, yes. Some Christian philosophers might push back at you, though, on this point. God, Time, and Creation | Reasonable Faith

3. God communicates with man in words that fit man’s understanding like the four corners of the earth, the sun rising and setting, and the future for God. In other words, God does not convey the idea of time being relative for God or God being outside of time.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. God knew when He inspired the writing of His word, that the knowledge of Man concerning the universe would expand. Yet, God chose not to include in His word scientific explanations of time, space, gravity or quantum mechanics. Why would He? His word is ultimately concerned with eternal spiritual matters, not temporal, material ones.

4. There is no reason for time to not be: totally relative to God.

Your grammar here is confusing. I'm not sure what you're saying in this point.

5. God knows what is happening in some distant Galaxy (billion light years away) at the same time knowing what is happening on earth.

6. Just as God knows simultaneous what is happening throughout space instantly, God would also know what is happening throughout time in the Space Time Continuum.

Yes, this is what it means for God to be omniscient and omnipresent. What's more, He has always known all that has, is and will happen.

7. God exist throughout time, so His existence at the end of time could “communicate” within Himself to His existence at the beginning of time.

I've no idea what this means. Do you? We can posit all sorts of things about God, but without good grounds for doing so either from Scripture and/or from deductions made from the nature of the universe itself, we ought to be very careful about doing so.

8. History is fixed; nothing can change what has already happened. Even If God wanted to destroy the first Adam and Eve and start over with a second Adam and Eve there would always have been a first Adam and Eve, even if God was the only being to know of them.

Okay.

9. God’s existence at the end of man’s time would know historically everything that happened throughout human existence.

10. The whole history of humans would be “communicated” back to God at the beginning of time as pure history from God’s existence at the end of time.

It seems now that you are thinking that God's knowledge of all things conforms to a linear progression of events, that He knows what He knows as a consequence of a retrospective self-communication of facts. But God knew before the universe existed (which means prior to the existence of time) all that would happen in it. (If there was ever any moment when God did not know everything perfectly, He would not be God.) It doesn't look, then, like God's knowledge of all events is communicated back to Himself from a future version of Himself. There was no future version of Himself before the universe existed, yet God still knew then all that would occur in the universe prior to creating it.

12. Since God’s existence at the end of human time and knows everything humans did historically, it cannot be changed and God “communicating” that history to Himself at the beginning of time means nothing can change in human existence from the way it “did” happen for God’s existence at the end of time.

I don't see that you've properly justified this retrospective communication of knowledge you say God has. Nothing in Scripture and nothing about what would make God, God, suggests to me He operates in the way you say He does here.

13. The moment God decides to make a particular human (which can be at the beginning of human time) that human has a future know as history by God’s existence at the end of time.

If God obtains new knowledge, He is not truly omniscient and therefore not God. God's knowledge, then, of a person's life He has always known (and must always have known) - even before there was a universe.

14. If God decides never to make a particular human (there could be a virtual infinite number of these) than that never to exist human has no future and thus no history to be known by God.

It would be of use to you to read up on Molinism. It has some very interesting things to point out about counter-factuals, moments of knowledge (could, would and will), contingent truth and such that may help you refine your thinking in the areas of God's omniscience, foreknowledge and timelessness.

15. Just because the history of a made choice is known, including a choice already made by God, does not mean that choice was not an autonomous free will choice. We cannot proof a former historic choice was not an autonomous free will choice, just because we now know historically what was chosen.

To assert that, because God knows the future He has determined it, is to make a basic error in modal logic. Foreknowledge does not necessitate causation.

17. It also logically follows: if the existence of God at the end of time communicates to himself at the beginning of time all human history as set in stone, does not mean some human choices made could not be autonomous free will choices by the human.

I'd also recommend reading up on soft libertarianism. As a view on human free agency, it may appeal to you and help sharpen your thinking about how human free will works with God's sovereignty.