The belief “God having perfect complete foreknowledge” called Open Theism?

[bling]

(staff edit ) please just show me where I being Open Theism. Just tell me: OK (consistent) or Not OK to believe, (if you say Not OK it would be wonderful to know why):

Normally I would just ask questions but here is what I support at this point in my spiritual growth:

1. Time is relative, God could have created the existence of time for humans, and God is not limited by man’s time.

2. God exist outside of human time, yet exist simultaneously within human present time.

3. God communicates with man in words that fit man’s understanding like the four corners of the earth, the sun rising and setting, and the future for God. In other words, God does not convey the idea of time being relative for God or God being outside of time.

4. There is no reason for time to not be: totally relative to God.

5. God knows what is happening in some distant Galaxy (billion light years away) at the same time knowing what is happening on earth.

6. Just as God knows simultaneous what is happening throughout space instantly, God would also know what is happening throughout time in the Space Time Continuum.

7. God exist throughout time, so His existence at the end of time could “communicate” within Himself to His existence at the beginning of time.

8. History is fixed; nothing can change what has already happened. Even If God wanted to destroy the first Adam and Eve and start over with a second Adam and Eve there would always have been a first Adam and Eve, even if God was the only being to know of them.

9. God’s existence at the end of man’s time would know historically everything that happened throughout human existence.

10. The whole history of humans would be “communicated” back to God at the beginning of time as pure history from God’s existence at the end of time.

11. God from the beginning of human time (when every that was) knows all human future as pure history, so God knows all human’s future.

12. Since God’s existence at the end of human time and knows everything humans did historically, it cannot be changed and God “communicating” that history to Himself at the beginning of time means nothing can change in human existence from the way it “did” happen for God’s existence at the end of time.

13. The moment God decides to make a particular human (which can be at the beginning of human time) that human has a future know as history by God’s existence at the end of time.

14. If God decides never to make a particular human (there could be a virtual infinite number of these) than that never to exist human has no future and thus no history to be known by God.

15. Just because the history of a made choice is known, including a choice already made by God, does not mean that choice was not an autonomous free will choice. We cannot proof a former historic choice was not an autonomous free will choice, just because we now know historically what was chosen.

16. Again, just because God at the end of time knows all human choices as historical, does not mean some of those choices were not autonomous free will choices.

17. It also logically follows: if the existence of God at the end of time communicates to himself at the beginning of time all human history as set in stone, does not mean some human choices made could not be autonomous free will choices by the human.

18. If God is never ever going to produce a specific individual with ability to make just a very few autonomous free will choices, God would not know exactly the choices that specific individual would make if he/she were made, but would only know all the possible choices. That never to be made individual has no future to be known and if the limited choices are truly to be that individual’s autonomous free will choice there is no way to know, unless that individual is going to be made. God would know human seemingly free will choice that are the result of the person’s environment and genes (programming) which are most of what we consider to be free will choices (like the flavor of ice-cream on choses on a specific day), but those are not the choices which matter.

19. Once you agree to the concept of God being outside of time (existing throughout human time) and the definition of autonomous free will, all my ideas logically follow.

Please help me to understand where I am being illogical or not believing God knows man’s future perfectly.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Please help me to understand where I am being illogical or not believing God knows man’s future perfectly.

Yahweh Created Everything SIMPLE. MAN came up with MANY devices (sinfully).

The OP is way way too complicated.

Boil down your faith in Jesus to at most 3 sentences and try again ?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1. Time is relative, God could have created the existence of time for humans, and God is not limited by man’s time.

Time is an absolute. The difference between time in our physical universe and in Heaven is that in our universe it is measure by the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth around the sun.

Time in its absolute sense is merely one event following another. In Heaven, it has no beginning nor end. But without a series of events, nothing, including God could exist.

2. God exist outside of human time, yet exist simultaneously within human present time.

Agreed.

3. God communicates with man in words that fit man’s understanding like the four corners of the earth, the sun rising and setting, and the future for God. In other words, God does not convey the idea of time being relative for God or God being outside of time.

If we accept that God lives in a state where one event follows another, then to say that He is out of that, is a philosophical and science fiction concept, not a Biblical one.

4. There is no reason for time to not be: totally relative to God.

I don't know what you mean by that.

5. God knows what is happening in some distant Galaxy (billion light years away) at the same time knowing what is happening on earth.

Agreed.

6. Just as God knows simultaneous what is happening throughout space instantly, God would also know what is happening throughout time in the Space Time Continuum.

This is pure science fiction.

7. God exist throughout time, so His existence at the end of time could “communicate” within Himself to His existence at the beginning of time.

This is worse than science fiction. It is science fantasy. In eternity, time is still a linear process of one event following another. The past is past, the present is present, and the future is still to come. In eternity, there is no need to measure time because it will never end.

8. History is fixed; nothing can change what has already happened. Even If God wanted to destroy the first Adam and Eve and start over with a second Adam and Eve there would always have been a first Adam and Eve, even if God was the only being to know of them.

Agreed.

9. God’s existence at the end of man’s time would know historically everything that happened throughout human existence.

I think I know what you are getting at. God's memory of events does not fade like our memory of events.

10. The whole history of humans would be “communicated” back to God at the beginning of time as pure history from God’s existence at the end of time.

It doesn't need to be communicated back to God, because He would remember it all and would be able to recall any event from the creation of the universe until the end of it, when it happens.

11. God from the beginning of human time (when every that was) knows all human future as pure history, so God knows all human’s future.

There is a problem about that because the future doesn't exist yet. It is formed on the decisions we make and events that result from it. A future that exists belongs with science fantasy. God appears to know the future, because He is planning for those events to happen and He will bring them to pass.

12. Since God’s existence at the end of human time and knows everything humans did historically, it cannot be changed and God “communicating” that history to Himself at the beginning of time means nothing can change in human existence from the way it “did” happen for God’s existence at the end of time.

Past history cannot be changed because it has already happened. No one can go back in time to change it. That concept is also science fantasy.

13. The moment God decides to make a particular human (which can be at the beginning of human time) that human has a future know as history by God’s existence at the end of time.

This is descending into gobbledygook!

14. If God decides never to make a particular human (there could be a virtual infinite number of these) than that never to exist human has no future and thus no history to be known by God.

Doesn't make sense to me. Sounds like Leslie Neilsen in his comedy book describing the great films he was never in, as part of his extensive film career. What you seem to be saying is that things that were never created still exist somewhere in some parallel universe!

15. Just because the history of a made choice is known, including a choice already made by God, does not mean that choice was not an autonomous free will choice. We cannot proof a former historic choice was not an autonomous free will choice, just because we now know historically what was chosen.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. It sounds like you are going around in diminishing circles in your thinking.

16. Again, just because God at the end of time knows all human choices as historical, does not mean some of those choices were not autonomous free will choices.

God knows all the possibilities of choice and His guidance is dynamic, based on the choices we make.

17. It also logically follows: if the existence of God at the end of time communicates to himself at the beginning of time all human history as set in stone, does not mean some human choices made could not be autonomous free will choices by the human.

Your comment is not logical, because your view of God's existence is illogical for a start, so everything that follows has to be on an illogical foundation.

18. If God is never ever going to produce a specific individual with ability to make just a very few autonomous free will choices, God would not know exactly the choices that specific individual would make if he/she were made, but would only know all the possible choices. That never to be made individual has no future to be known and if the limited choices are truly to be that individual’s autonomous free will choice there is no way to know, unless that individual is going to be made. God would know human seemingly free will choice that are the result of the person’s environment and genes (programming) which are most of what we consider to be free will choices (like the flavor of ice-cream on choses on a specific day), but those are not the choices which matter.

Confusing. Your point is not clear.

19. Once you agree to the concept of God being outside of time (existing throughout human time) and the definition of autonomous free will, all my ideas logically follow.

I don't agree, so I don't go along with your thinking.

Please help me to understand where I am being illogical or not believing God knows man’s future perfectly.

The simple answer is to go back to the Bible and stick to what it says about the nature and character of God, and filter out the confusion of science fiction and fantasy that is mixed with your thinking.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I had a post removed by the staff because initially they said I was supporting the Open Theism and later they said I was supporting God not knowing the future and now said I could not post my ideas in General theology, because it is Open Theism.

I am begging all of you and the staff for help with this since: What the staff said: I am proclaiming is just the opposite of what I feel I am proclaiming, so please just show me where I being Open Theism. Just tell me: OK (consistent) or Not OK to believe, (if you say Not OK it would be wonderful to know why):

Normally I would just ask questions but here is what I support at this point in my spiritual growth:

1. Time is relative, God could have created the existence of time for humans, and God is not limited by man’s time.

2. God exist outside of human time, yet exist simultaneously within human present time.

3. God communicates with man in words that fit man’s understanding like the four corners of the earth, the sun rising and setting, and the future for God. In other words, God does not convey the idea of time being relative for God or God being outside of time.

4. There is no reason for time to not be: totally relative to God.

5. God knows what is happening in some distant Galaxy (billion light years away) at the same time knowing what is happening on earth.

6. Just as God knows simultaneous what is happening throughout space instantly, God would also know what is happening throughout time in the Space Time Continuum.

7. God exist throughout time, so His existence at the end of time could “communicate” within Himself to His existence at the beginning of time.

8. History is fixed; nothing can change what has already happened. Even If God wanted to destroy the first Adam and Eve and start over with a second Adam and Eve there would always have been a first Adam and Eve, even if God was the only being to know of them.

9. God’s existence at the end of man’s time would know historically everything that happened throughout human existence.

10. The whole history of humans would be “communicated” back to God at the beginning of time as pure history from God’s existence at the end of time.

11. God from the beginning of human time (when every that was) knows all human future as pure history, so God knows all human’s future.

12. Since God’s existence at the end of human time and knows everything humans did historically, it cannot be changed and God “communicating” that history to Himself at the beginning of time means nothing can change in human existence from the way it “did” happen for God’s existence at the end of time.

13. The moment God decides to make a particular human (which can be at the beginning of human time) that human has a future know as history by God’s existence at the end of time.

14. If God decides never to make a particular human (there could be a virtual infinite number of these) than that never to exist human has no future and thus no history to be known by God.

15. Just because the history of a made choice is known, including a choice already made by God, does not mean that choice was not an autonomous free will choice. We cannot proof a former historic choice was not an autonomous free will choice, just because we now know historically what was chosen.

16. Again, just because God at the end of time knows all human choices as historical, does not mean some of those choices were not autonomous free will choices.

17. It also logically follows: if the existence of God at the end of time communicates to himself at the beginning of time all human history as set in stone, does not mean some human choices made could not be autonomous free will choices by the human.

18. If God is never ever going to produce a specific individual with ability to make just a very few autonomous free will choices, God would not know exactly the choices that specific individual would make if he/she were made, but would only know all the possible choices. That never to be made individual has no future to be known and if the limited choices are truly to be that individual’s autonomous free will choice there is no way to know, unless that individual is going to be made. God would know human seemingly free will choice that are the result of the person’s environment and genes (programming) which are most of what we consider to be free will choices (like the flavor of ice-cream on choses on a specific day), but those are not the choices which matter.

19. Once you agree to the concept of God being outside of time (existing throughout human time) and the definition of autonomous free will, all my ideas logically follow.

Please help me to understand where I am being illogical or not believing God knows man’s future perfectly.

Has God existed eternally, "before" anything else, angels, satan, Universe etc?

 

[hedrick]

Time is not absolute. Check out relativity.

 

[Silmarien]

I am begging all of you and the staff for help with this since: What the staff said: I am proclaiming is just the opposite of what I feel I am proclaiming, so please just show me where I being Open Theism. Just tell me: OK (consistent) or Not OK to believe, (if you say Not OK it would be wonderful to know why):

Nothing here looks at all like Open Theism to me. Bits and pieces of it look almost scholastic. Maybe you got too abstract with it and someone got confused and misread it?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Normally I would just ask questions but here is what I support at this point in my spiritual growth:

I agree with all of your points, but I believe in predestination. If you think that a man's autonomous free will negates predestination, then I would suggest that what you've listed here defies that notion. God, knowing in infinite detail what will happen and how to get there, and having the power to make it happen, can make the desired outcome without overriding a person's will. You can't lay all of that out on the table as you just did and suggest that God isn't in full control of the outcome.

Anyway, it isn't open theism. There was probably something in the way you said it that confused a moderator, and nothing more.

 

[Francis Drake]

Although I might have worded somethings differently, I don't see any really major issues with the OP.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Time is not absolute. Check out relativity.

If you are talking about Einstein's theory of relativity, it remains a theory. It has not been proved.
Time in its absolute sense is merely one event following another. The Bible describes time like that in Heaven as well as in earth. We measure time because for us time is finite. For us there is a beginning, a middle, and an end to our time in this world.

If we lived in eternity where there was no beginning or end of time, then we wouldn't see the need to measure it because we wouldn't need to know how long we have been alive, and how much longer we have to live.

It is a Biblical concept that God is aware of the past, the present, and what He is planning for the future. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible where it says that God lives in an ever-present state simultaneously living in the past, present, and future at the same time. If that was so, He couldn't exist. He would be frozen, just like a snapshot photo.

There is no proof that time can be changed by travelling through space faster than the speed of light.

 

[hedrick]

If you are talking about Einstein's theory of relativity, it remains a theory. It has not been proved.
Time in its absolute sense is merely one event following another. The Bible describes time like that in Heaven as well as in earth. We measure time because for us time is finite. For us there is a beginning, a middle, and an end to our time in this world.

Huh? Aspects of general relativity are still unclear, but not special relativity. It's been tested many times. If you get to deny basic physical reality, it's going to be hard to have a useful conversation.

 

[Jonaitis]

The word "foreknowledge" in Scripture is not the same as "foresight." Many Christians confuse the two.

When you "know" someone, it is more than some kind of head knowledge, it is a personal relation with another person. Jesus used this word frequently for this meaning.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Now, does the above quotation suggest that Jesus was ignorant of their existence? Obviously not, especially when he calls them "workers of lawlessness." The word used for typical knowledge is often used in this sense, as we use it in the English language today. This will help you understand what "foreknowledge" means.

In Romans 8:28-29 we read the following:

"We know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Notice how the word "foreknew" was used. It wasn't used for the individual's action, but rather on the individual himself. God sees and knows all things, even every human being on earth, so to say this word is equivalent to "foresight" doesn't make sense in this passage. Only those who he "foreknew" were predestined. In verse 30, we read that those whom he predestined, he called to faith; and those whom he called to faith he justified; and those whom he justified he glorifies. This statement can't be spoken of every individual. "Foreknew" is a personal engagement with an individual. Ever hear that statement from the apostle John that says, "We love God, because he loved us first"? That is what this word means, he "foreloved" those whom he chose or predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son. It is never spoken about an action of someone, but the person himself.

Let's look at another passage in 1 Peter 1-2:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ. To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood."

So again, notice that the word "foreknowledge" refers to the "elect exiles." It is the same order as we read in the apostle Paul's epistle to the Romans. Election and foreknowledge go hand at hand. He chose to love us, not because of us, but because of himself. He chose us because he loves us is what this is saying.

 

[Radagast]

Huh? Aspects of general relativity are still unclear, but not special relativity. It's been tested many times. If you get to deny basic physical reality, it's going to be hard to have a useful conversation.

Yes, but special relativity is consistent with, and indeed implies, a "block universe" where the whole four-dimensional spacetime continuum (past, present, and future) exists as a block.

 

[hedrick]

Yes, but special relativity is consistent with, and indeed implies, a "block universe" where the whole four-dimensional spacetime continuum (past, present, and future) exists as a block.

It sure what you mean by that. I’m not sure quite what implications relativity has for theology. I don’t immediately see any.

 

[Radagast]

I had a post removed by the staff

This is not the place to complain about staff actions.

here is what I support at this point in my spiritual growth

What you say does mostly sound like the complete opposite of Open Theism.

1. Time is relative, God could have created the existence of time for humans

I don't know what this means.

7. God exist throughout time, so His existence at the end of time could “communicate” within Himself to His existence at the beginning of time.

9. God’s existence at the end of man’s time would know historically everything that happened throughout human existence.

This may be what confuses people (it does sound unorthodox). If God is outside of time, and if God can see past, present, and future, there is no need for God to "communicate within Himself" in the way you describe.

19. Once you agree to the concept of God being outside of time (existing throughout human time) and the definition of autonomous free will, all my ideas logically follow.

It seems like you are stumbling towards Boethius's answer: People have free will, but God (who is outside of time) sees past, present, and future all at once.

 

[Radagast]

It sure what you mean by that. I’m not sure quite what implications relativity has for theology. I don’t immediately see any.

I was talking about straight physics. Given special relativity and two events A and B, A can be either before B or after B, depending on the motion of the observer.

This permits no universe-wide concept of "present" and therefore, as Hermann Minkowski's pointed out in 1908, implies a "block universe" where the whole four-dimensional spacetime continuum (past, present, and future) exists as a block.

This in turn implies a radical determinism. But that's all physics, not theology.

 

[SkyWriting]

I had a post removed by the staff because initially they said I was supporting the Open Theism and later they said I was supporting God not knowing the future and now said I could not post my ideas in General theology, because it is Open Theism.

I am begging all of you and the staff for help with this since: What the staff said: I am proclaiming is just the opposite of what I feel I am proclaiming, so please just show me where I being Open Theism. Just tell me: OK (consistent) or Not OK to believe, (if you say Not OK it would be wonderful to know why):

Normally I would just ask questions but here is what I support at this point in my spiritual growth:

1. Time is relative, God could have created the existence of time for humans, and God is not limited by man’s time.

2. God exist outside of human time, yet exist simultaneously within human present time.

3. God communicates with man in words that fit man’s understanding like the four corners of the earth, the sun rising and setting, and the future for God. In other words, God does not convey the idea of time being relative for God or God being outside of time.

4. There is no reason for time to not be: totally relative to God.

5. God knows what is happening in some distant Galaxy (billion light years away) at the same time knowing what is happening on earth.

6. Just as God knows simultaneous what is happening throughout space instantly, God would also know what is happening throughout time in the Space Time Continuum.

7. God exist throughout time, so His existence at the end of time could “communicate” within Himself to His existence at the beginning of time.

8. History is fixed; nothing can change what has already happened. Even If God wanted to destroy the first Adam and Eve and start over with a second Adam and Eve there would always have been a first Adam and Eve, even if God was the only being to know of them.

9. God’s existence at the end of man’s time would know historically everything that happened throughout human existence.

10. The whole history of humans would be “communicated” back to God at the beginning of time as pure history from God’s existence at the end of time.

11. God from the beginning of human time (when every that was) knows all human future as pure history, so God knows all human’s future.

12. Since God’s existence at the end of human time and knows everything humans did historically, it cannot be changed and God “communicating” that history to Himself at the beginning of time means nothing can change in human existence from the way it “did” happen for God’s existence at the end of time.

13. The moment God decides to make a particular human (which can be at the beginning of human time) that human has a future know as history by God’s existence at the end of time.

14. If God decides never to make a particular human (there could be a virtual infinite number of these) than that never to exist human has no future and thus no history to be known by God.

15. Just because the history of a made choice is known, including a choice already made by God, does not mean that choice was not an autonomous free will choice. We cannot proof a former historic choice was not an autonomous free will choice, just because we now know historically what was chosen.

16. Again, just because God at the end of time knows all human choices as historical, does not mean some of those choices were not autonomous free will choices.

17. It also logically follows: if the existence of God at the end of time communicates to himself at the beginning of time all human history as set in stone, does not mean some human choices made could not be autonomous free will choices by the human.

18. If God is never ever going to produce a specific individual with ability to make just a very few autonomous free will choices, God would not know exactly the choices that specific individual would make if he/she were made, but would only know all the possible choices. That never to be made individual has no future to be known and if the limited choices are truly to be that individual’s autonomous free will choice there is no way to know, unless that individual is going to be made. God would know human seemingly free will choice that are the result of the person’s environment and genes (programming) which are most of what we consider to be free will choices (like the flavor of ice-cream on choses on a specific day), but those are not the choices which matter.

19. Once you agree to the concept of God being outside of time (existing throughout human time) and the definition of autonomous free will, all my ideas logically follow.

Please help me to understand where I am being illogical or not believing God knows man’s future perfectly.

Just stick to one point at a time and not con-fu-ji-tate the moderators.
Also back your one or two points with scripture links or quotes.

 

[bling]

Yahweh Created Everything SIMPLE. MAN came up with MANY devices (sinfully).

The OP is way way too complicated.

Boil down your faith in Jesus to at most 3 sentences and try again ?

This is not "my faith in Jesus" being discussed, but foreknowledge and how it might work.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is not "my faith in Jesus" being discussed, but foreknowledge and how it might work.

"It" doesn't work.

The Spirit is not understandable to the carnal mind or natural mind of man.

 

[bling]

I was talking about straight physics. Given special relativity and two events A and B, A can be either before B or after B, depending on the motion of the observer.

This permits no universe-wide concept of "present" and therefore, as Hermann Minkowski's pointed out in 1908, implies a "block universe" where the whole four-dimensional spacetime continuum (past, present, and future) exists as a block.

This in turn implies a radical determinism. But that's all physics, not theology.

No it does not imply a radical determinism, scientist who accept the possibility do not all believe in God nor do they feel it proofs there is a God, and because some individual free will choice could be part of the block.

 

[bling]

This is not the place to complain about staff actions.



What you say does mostly sound like the complete opposite of Open Theism.



I don't know what this means.



This may be what confuses people (it does sound unorthodox). If God is outside of time, and if God can see past, present, and future, there is no need for God to "communicate within Himself" in the way you describe.



It seems like you are stumbling towards Boethius's answer: People have free will, but God (who is outside of time) sees past, present, and future all at once.

OK