The beasts of revelation 13

[SalemsConcordance]

Daniel 7 spans 609 BC to AD 476, broken down as follows:

I. Babylonian Empire (609–539 BC)
II. Medo-Persian Empire (539–332 BC)
III. Greece (332–140 BC)
IV. Roman Empire (63 BC–AD 476)

Daniel 8 spans 336 to 140 BC, viz.:

1. Alexander the Great (336–323 BC)
2. Alexander IV of Macedon (323–309 BC)
3. Cassander (309–301 BC)
4. Ptolemy I Soter (301–284 BC)
5. Ptolemy II Philadelphus (284–246 BC)
6. Ptolemy III Eurgetes (246–221 BC)
7. Ptolemy IV Philopator (221–204 BC)
8. Ptolemy V Epiphanes (204–200 BC)
9. Antiochus III the Great (200–187 BC)
10. Seleucus IV Philopator (187–175 BC)
11. Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175–164 BC)
Maccabean Revolt (167–160 BC)
12. Judas Maccabeus (167–160 BC)
13. Simon Maccabeus (142–135 BC)

The Hasmonean Kingdom was established in 140 BC.

Is the longest empire in history not represented for any particular reason? Not snarky, I'm curious.
V.(?) East Roman (Byzantium) Empire 63BC or 330AD to 1453 AD

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

Is the longest empire in history not represented for any particular reason? Not snarky, I'm curious.
V.(?) East Roman (Byzantium) Empire 63BC or 330AD to 1453 AD

Just to be clear, the Eastern Roman Empire began in AD 395 and was conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate in AD 637, while the Byzantine Empire lasted from AD 610 to 1453. Thanks for stopping by...

 

[Davy]

Hah, at least we agree on one thing, Shoebat's hang-up with Mahdi being the AC is wrong.. Even if our reasons for disagreeing are different

Don't all "kingdoms" need a "king" ? How are you looking at the Word Doug? You do realise that the battle is a spiritual one don't you?

Those "kings" are the spirits of the seven heads of the beast. They manifest as a military kingdom (Egypt, Assyria, etc), a religious kingdom (Judaism, Islam, etc) and, presumably through the "messiahs", a political kingdom.

There are seven because unlike the seven Spirits of God that manifest themselves as the perfect whole in Jesus, in the beast those spirits are divided and separated. They manifest as separate entities despite still being a part of the whole in the beast (who is the eighth king), unlike Christ's Kingdom, which is a complete military, religious and political kingdom. The beast's final kingdom will be a whole but it will be a whole that is still divided, and a house divided cannot stand.

The Roman emperors might have claimed to be gods yet they still worshipped other gods, Janus being the oldest of them..

So how do you interpret the beast system of ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns of Rev.12:3-4?

 

[Ki Won]

So how do you interpret the beast system of ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns of Rev.12:3-4?

Did you read the OP?

 

[Davy]

Did you read the OP?

You didn't answer my question, and yes, I did ready your OP, and it is completely wild imagination, not letting God's Word interpret God's Word.

 

[Ki Won]

You didn't answer my question, and yes, I did ready your OP, and it is completely wild imagination, not letting God's Word interpret God's Word.

Hahaha! Quality Davy, quality! The answer to your question IS the OP!

And as for it being completely wild imagination, I guess when it all comes to pass (and it will, I promise you 100%) then you will say something about it not being Scriptural or something.

Have a read of post #15 of this thread and answer the questions I posed to TS honestly, then read my OP again, then ask yourself if it truly is "wild imagination" or if it could actually be correct? TS never replied to that post which should tell you all you need to know.

Wild imagination.. Smdh

 

[Kenneth Heck]

Why are the messiahs of the Inca religion (Viracocha) or the Aztec religion (Kukulkan/Quetzalcoatl) excluded from your list of seven? Zoroastrianism has so few followers (under 200,000) that it is questionable whether it will exist in the future.

 

[WhoIsLikeGod?]

The four horns representing Alexander's breakup kingdoms - out of one of those is the location from which the little horn will wax (come) with a strong army into the middle east toward Israel from the north and west - at the time of the end.

Parts of Daniel 7 and 8 are historic. But not the little horn and the ten kings - which are time of the end.

The little horn in Daniel and the little horn in Daniel 8 are the same person.

Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

____________________________________________________________________

Where are the ten horns on the 7 heads? you asked. And what about the heads themselves?

The beast in Revelation 13 has a mouth like a lion, which speaks blasphemies against God and them in heaven in v5. So in my rendition, I have the heads as lions, and one of the lion's heads notably greater than the other 6, who does all the blaspheme talk.

The notable head is the little horn person who begins as the leader of the EU, the end times Roman Empire. And after a failed stint as the King of Israel/messiah, by revealing himself to be the man of sin, and not the messiah after - he is killed and brought back to life - as the beast, dictator of the EU.

The ten horns, since they are associated with the person when he comes to power in the EU, and then later rule with him as the beast - for that reason I placed the ten horns on the notable lion's head.

I put the other six lion's heads behind the notable head, in the background - because those are in the past.

The lion heads don't have crowns in Revelation 13 because once the little horn person is killed - it ends the prophecy of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

The horns, however, do have crowns because they rule with the person after he has become the beast.

Doug, I'm assuming you already read posts #59 and #60. I see a problem with your rendition of horns and heads, which I already presented. We agree that the "notable/great horn" (Dan. 8:5, 8:8, 8:21) was Alexander the Great. The "four notable horns" (Dan. 8:8, 8:22) that stood up for it were determined by the Wars of the Diadochi.

Wars of the Diadochi - Wikipedia

The four kingdoms were: 1) the Kingdom of Ptolemy I Soter, 2) the Kingdom of Cassander, 3) the Kingdom of Lysimachus, and 4) the Kingdom of Seleucus I Nicator.

Here is where we disagree: the "little horn" (Dan. 8:9) that came out of one of them was Antiochus IV Epiphanes. "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land (Dan. 8:9)."

"With the help of king Eumenes II of Pergamum, Antiochus traveled from Athens, through Asia Minor (east) and reached Syria (south) by November 175 BC."

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia

He reached Judea, "the pleasant land," when he attacked Jerusalem in 167 BC.

Maccabean Revolt - Wikipedia

Regarding the little horn of Daniel 8: "And in the latter time of THEIR KINGDOM, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up (Dan. 8:23)."

THEIR kingdom was Hellenistic Greece; their origins were with Alexander the Great and the Diadochi. The scripture does not say "in the last days," here. It says "in the latter time of THEIR KINGDOM," meaning Hellenistic Greece.

Daniel 8 is all about the war between Medo-Persia and Greece. There were 2,300 years between the Battle of the Granicus in 334 BC and the Six-Day War in 1967. "The western sector of Jerusalem became Israel's capital. Following another war in June 1967, Jerusalem was reunited. The barriers dividing the city were demolished, the gates of the Old City were opened to people of all faiths, and the eastern sector was reintegrated into the nation's capital.

The book of Maccabees I claims that Antiochus IV Epiphanes caused the abomination of desolation. But it was only 1,102 days between his "abomination" on 15 Kislev 167 BC and the cleansing of the sanctuary on 25 Kislev 164 BC. Therefore, the count is reserved for the last days.

"So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision (Dan. 8:17)."

"And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days (Dan. 8:26)."

In response to your assignment of lions to heads in Revelation 13, what's the point? I see the seven heads of a beast in Revelation 13, but not in Daniel 7. Daniel 7 has no heads. Why are you putting them there? Daniel 7 has 11 horns. Why are you saying it has 10?

The heads have crowns in Revelation 12, whereas the horns do not. In Revelation 13, the horns have crowns, whereas the heads do not.

 

[Douggg]

Here is where we disagree: the "little horn" (Dan. 8:9) that came out of one of them was Antiochus IV Epiphanes. "And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land (Dan. 8:9)."

"With the help of king Eumenes II of Pergamum, Antiochus traveled from Athens, through Asia Minor (east) and reached Syria (south) by November 175 BC."

But Antiochus did not do that at the time of the end. So Daniel 8:9 is not talking about Antiochus.

Regarding the little horn of Daniel 8: "And in the latter time of THEIR KINGDOM, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up (Dan. 8:23)."

THEIR kingdom was Hellenistic Greece; their origins were with Alexander the Great and the Diadochi. The scripture does not say "in the last days," here. It says "in the latter time of THEIR KINGDOM," meaning Hellenistic Greece.

The transgressors are the host that the little horn is given - i.e. the ten kings that will be associated with him (determined from Daniel 7 and Revelation) .

Not the four generals (historic) because those did not act in concert with Antiochus to commit the transgression of desolation. Though Antiochus is generally acknowledged to have committed the abomination of desolation, something different, in Daniel 11:31.

The little horn person and his host are time of the end. And in Daniel 7:23-24, he comes out of the fourth kingdom, not third kingdom of Greece.

In response to your assignment of lions to heads in Revelation 13, what's the point? I see the seven heads of a beast in Revelation 13, but not in Daniel 7. Daniel 7 has no heads. Why are you putting them there? Daniel 7 has 11 horns. Why are you saying it has 10?

10 kings v24 + 1 (the little horn person) king v24.

The way the bible is organized, information about the person increases as the books are added.

Daniel 7, then Daniel 8, Daniel 9, Daniel 11, Daniel 12, then John 5:53, then 1John2:18, then 2Thessalonians2:3-4, then Revelation.

In Revelation 13, the critical verse is v5.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

There are 7 heads on the beast - but only one mouth is speaking great things and blasphemies. So on which of the 7 heads, is the one with the mouth speaking great thing and blapshemies?

The answer is - the head that was wounded unto death, but was healed. That head is the PERSON of the beast.

The body of the beast is the KINGDOM of that person. The head rules the body.

_________________________________________

In Revelation 17 of the 7 heads, six are accounted for. One yet to come. Which will be king 7. Who, when he comes, must continue a short space - the 42 months.

King 7 is the little horn person, coming out of the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7:23-24. Not third kingdom, Greece. But fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire.

So since the ten kings (the ten horns) give their kingdom over to the beast (person) Revelation 7:17, they are associated with the KINGDOM of the beast and that person. And rule with him, Revelation 17:12.

The Kingdom will be the EU in its final form. The beast person will be the dictator of the EU.

_________________________________________________

The person comes into the middle east following Gog/Magog as the little horn/prince who shall come. The Jews will think he is the messiah and is anointed the King of Israel. Around three years goes by and he betrays them committing the transgression of desolation. Is killed for it, but is brought back to life as the beast, and the ten EU leaders hand their kingdom over to him to be dictator.

 

[Ki Won]

Why are the messiahs of the Inca religion (Viracocha) or the Aztec religion (Kukulkan/Quetzalcoatl) excluded from your list of seven? Zoroastrianism has so few followers (under 200,000) that it is questionable whether it will exist in the future.

I would have thought that was obvious Kenneth, they're dead religions. They're no longer practised, what would be the point of God including dead religions in a prophecy regarding the end-times? The beast's seven heads relate to the seven religions besides Christianity that have a messianic figure currently practised by adherents around the world.

I agree Zoroastrianism has very few followers but your "questionable whether it will exist in the future" is an odd statement considering there is very little "future" left before Christ returns and destroys ALL other religions. None of the seven religions will exist in the future, whether currently practised by billions or a few hundred thousand so I don't think it matters how many adherents there are, just that the religion is currently practised.

 

[Zao is life]

wrong thread

 

[ewq1938]

The seven heads are the respective "messiahs"

I haven't read the entire thread but the main issue here is that this does not align with what Revelation 17 says the heads are, mountains where ten kings/kingdoms exist. That makes the heads/mountains areas of land where these ten kingdoms or governments exist. It's not 7 Messiahs from 7 false religions but 7 areas of land where the ten horns/kings have their kingdoms.