The Basic Problem With Christianity!

[bmoynihan]

If God is all knowing then he not only knows what has been but also what is to be, that’s what Christians believe, right?



Ok so when God created the heavens, the earth and Man he knew that man would turn against him. He made us this way! So why did he bother with what happened in the old testament? Why bother with Moses and the Jews if he knew that they wouldn’t be able to get to heaven that way?



Jesus’ birth happened quite recently, so what happened to the souls of the people who died before Jesus was born? Is it fair that just because God had not decided to send Jesus yet that they should go to hell?



Or maybe God could have just made us naturally kind and nice to each other. No original sin, but still with the option to turn against him if we wanted. Seams a very strange thing for a god to send a imperfect creation to the earth, knowing they would mess it up, and then sending a ‘fix’ in the form of him son to fix Gods error!

 

[Dymphna3]

Where have you read that they go to hell before the coming of Jesus? I have never heard of any denomination saying that. In the creed it says that Jesus decended to the dead during which time he saved the righteous before his coming.

 

[bmoynihan]

They didn't automatically goto hell but the route into heaven was much harder than it was after Jesus was born. I'm sure with the way the world was then there cannot have been many people who lived the perfect jewish life.

Therfore many people didn't get the option of the 'easy' route into heaven!

 

[Rafael]

They didn't automatically goto hell but the route into heaven was much harder than it was after Jesus was born. I'm sure with the way the world was then there cannot have been many people who lived the perfect jewish life.

Therfore many people didn't get the option of the 'easy' route into heaven!

The route into heaven wasn't easy for Jesus, and we follow Him. Perhaps God has a bit higher perspective on things if He is able to make and give life and knows how it must be done. He also must have in mind developing character and love into His creation or, as you have suggested, He could have built an army of robots to do His bidding and made things simpler. Instead, He has in mind fellowship and family, and in order to do that He had to created other things so that He could reveal Himself to man.
Those in the past looked forward to the cross and God's promise while we look back at the work done for us at the cross. Those that move into eternity experience no time loss or gain since there is no time in eternity - not just endless days as some believe, and all meet together at the same moment (if moment would be the correct term in eternity).
An artist cannot paint in all white, but has to use the black and dark colors to define and give character. So has God had to create the problems of evil and choice at the begining, and the revelation of God continues to unfold with the Sons of God being revealed against the back drop of evil. If not for the contrast of the darkness, the light could not be known, and the colors, again, lend more beauty and character to the masterpiece.

 

[shawn_h76]

If God is all knowing then he not only knows what has been but also what is to be, that’s what Christians believe, right?

Right.

Ok so when God created the heavens, the earth and Man he knew that man would turn against him. He made us this way! So why did he bother with what happened in the old testament? Why bother with Moses and the Jews if he knew that they wouldn’t be able to get to heaven that way?

The purpose of the Law, which was given to moses, was to be our schoolmaster before Jesus came. 700 years before Jesus was born, prophets wrote about what will he do, how will he die etc.....Jesus fufilled everything that was written about him.

Jesus’ birth happened quite recently, so what happened to the souls of the people who died before Jesus was born? Is it fair that just because God had not decided to send Jesus yet that they should go to hell?

When Jesus died on the cross he went to hell to preach to the souls in captivity. He empited hell right then and there; giving gifts to man. Now hell is not empty.

Or maybe God could have just made us naturally kind and nice to each other.

He did that with Adam. Adam was kind and nice but turned agaisnt God. Thus, we must be reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus.

No original sin, but still with the option to turn against him if we wanted.

For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God romans 3:23
You have sinned atleast once in your life, yes you have told one lie.

Seams a very strange thing for a god to send a imperfect creation to the earth,

Men were not imperfect at first. When adam wanted to become a god, than death(physicall) came upon alll creation. It was appointment for men to die, right when adam sinned, and if you know die without Jesus than you are eternally lost.

knowing they would mess it up,

Who are you, oh clay, to judge the potter? God knew that 1/3 of mankind would choose him.(Zechariah 13:9)

and then sending a ‘fix’ in the form of him son to fix Gods error!

No. Men sinned and turned agaisnt God. God didnt want to be angry with mankind and casted everybody to eternal death, because sin cannot go unpunished, so then he sent Jesus(who is God himself) . Jesus died for your sins, taking the punishment of sins for you-if you repent and have faith in him.

 

[bmoynihan]

You say "He did that with Adam. Adam was kind and nice but turned agaisnt God. Thus, we must be reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus. " as if WE made this decision!!

I never had a decision in this! Would a loving God really punish me for something one person did?

Its like saying the children of a murder should also go to prison and then plead to be released and then thank the guard for letting them go!!

 

[Rafael]

You say "He did that with Adam. Adam was kind and nice but turned agaisnt God. Thus, we must be reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus. " as if WE made this decision!!

I never had a decision in this! Would a loving God really punish me for something one person did?

Its like saying the children of a murder should also go to prison and then plead to be released and then thank the guard for letting them go!!

All men inherit death from sin. Is that evidence enough that something bad occured when God gave man a choice in the garden of Eden? Is it then God's responsibility or man's choice that causes children to die today?
Because He loved us, He bought us back from death and has provided us a way of salvation through the death of His Son Jesus as the once and for all sacrifice and payment for sin and death.

 

[Dymphna3]

I'm just wondering are you just TRYING to start an arguement or what? God is not punishing you. God sent his only son to redeem you. And your anology of the murderer really makes no sense.

Boy isnt' this a bunch of bull-hookie.

 

[WashedClean]

You say "He did that with Adam. Adam was kind and nice but turned agaisnt God. Thus, we must be reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus. " as if WE made this decision!!

I never had a decision in this! Would a loving God really punish me for something one person did?

Its like saying the children of a murder should also go to prison and then plead to be released and then thank the guard for letting them go!!

Hi there,

Great question. I just wanted to address this part first.

Adam was the perfect representation for humanity. That means that any one of us would have disobeyed God if we had been in his position. So yes, it is fair. We all sin in thought and deed, deliberately and unintentionally. Since God must punish sin or He would go against His own character, He sent Jesus to pay our penalty. He didn't have to, but He did. All you need to do is repent and believe.

God bless,

Washed

 

[linden]

Hi there,

Great question. I just wanted to address this part first.

Adam was the perfect representation for humanity. That means that any one of us would have disobeyed God if we had been in his position. So yes, it is fair. We all sin in thought and deed, deliberately and unintentionally. Since God must punish sin or He would go against His own character, He sent Jesus to pay our penalty. He didn't have to, but He did. All you need to do is repent and believe.

God bless,

Washed

nicely said.

To bmoynihan: It is not a matter of being nice. We are "not nice" in "God's eye". We are spiritually dead until we accept His salvation solution. If we do accept the salvation solution, we then have His righteousness given to us, thereby we the have the requirement to "get" to heaven if you will.

Also, From Adam to the last person born, salvation is the same through out history. Salvation is in Jesus Christ, in the OT they did not know Him as Jesus Christ, but as Jehovah Elohim, or the 2nd person of the Trinity.

Linden

 

[WashedClean]

nicely said.

Gee, thanks

To bmoynihan: It is not a matter of being nice. We are "not nice" in "God's eye". We are spiritually dead until we accept His salvation solution. If we do accept the salvation solution, we then have His righteousness given to us, thereby we the have the requirement to "get" to heaven if you will.

Also, From Adam to the last person born, salvation is the same through out history. Salvation is in Jesus Christ, in the OT they did not know Him as Jesus Christ, but as Jehovah Elohim, or the 2nd person of the Trinity.

Linden

And I'll give you the same compliment, nicely stated!

Washed

 

[The Midge]

If God is all knowing then he not only knows what has been but also what is to be, that’s what Christians believe, right?



Ok so when God created the heavens, the earth and Man he knew that man would turn against him. He made us this way! So why did he bother with what happened in the old testament? Why bother with Moses and the Jews if he knew that they wouldn’t be able to get to heaven that way?



Jesus’ birth happened quite recently, so what happened to the souls of the people who died before Jesus was born? Is it fair that just because God had not decided to send Jesus yet that they should go to hell?



Or maybe God could have just made us naturally kind and nice to each other. No original sin, but still with the option to turn against him if we wanted. Seams a very strange thing for a god to send a imperfect creation to the earth, knowing they would mess it up, and then sending a ‘fix’ in the form of him son to fix Gods error!

Perhaps it may help you to think of God like the ultimate chess computer. He knows all the possible moves that can be made in a game. All though there is a vast number they are finite. Such a computer is always going to win. However the computer does not know what exact moves its human oponent is going to make. But is can still work around those moves to bring about the result that it wants.

Magnify the possible number of moves that can be made, give the chess pieces an element of free will to chose which moves they can make from the range of moves available and give the omniscent chess computer the ability to convert black pieces to white pieces (assuming the computer plays white) then you have a rough and ready model of how predestination and free will work out.

Any removal of our ability not to be kind and nice would be a removal of our free will to some extent. We are the way we are and we have to face up to that reallity one way or another.


On the separate question of what happens to poeple who never know God or Christ the honest answer is that we are not told. 2 Peter (IIRC) has an opaque reference of how Jesus preached in hell, but the meaning of this is far from clear. I think God has resolved this but we simply don't need to know- if you are unwilling to respond to the gospel in this life then you would probably be unwilling to respond to God's plan B. An ominscent and just God who knows everything about you is capable of working that out isn't He?

 

[light-bringer]

Someone who is imperfect will create an imperfect being (us)

 

[PianoGuy]

waaaait, you're not saying that God is imperfect - right???

 

[Asar'el]

You say "He did that with Adam. Adam was kind and nice but turned agaisnt God. Thus, we must be reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus. " as if WE made this decision!!

I never had a decision in this! Would a loving God really punish me for something one person did?

Its like saying the children of a murder should also go to prison and then plead to be released and then thank the guard for letting them go!!

Before you argue that you had nothing to do with Adam's decision, consider that you would not exist without Adam. Kind of useless to argue against your parents for deciding to have you, for example...

Instead of a murderer, consider a thief that steals something, and gives it to his children; what do you think, do they have a right to it because they got it from their father? Or has the original owner the rightful title to it?

We are like the children in posession of stolen goods; Christ allows us to return them to their rightful owner - and He took the punishment due us for the misuse!! (think of that as interest)

 

[Rafael]

God is not impertect but does allow imperfection to happen and exist for the time being. The problem is the choice He gave at the begining, which allowed satan and then man to choose sin and death. All this is resolved in eternity through the gift of salvation to new life in His Son Jesus. The darkeness is used in contrast, to show and give glory to the light that dispels it.

Ro 9:22 What if God, desiring to let his wrath and his power be seen, for a long time put up with the vessels of wrath which were ready for destruction:

 

[Chica4Christ]

All I must say is.....GOD IS NOT FAIR

Because if God was FAIR, we would all get what we deserve, which is eternal damnation. Praise God!! Praise God because He isn't fair!!

God bless

 

[WashedClean]

All I must say is.....GOD IS NOT FAIR

Because if God was FAIR, we would all get what we deserve, which is eternal damnation. Praise God!! Praise God because He isn't fair!!

God bless

Amen Chica4Christ! You are sooo right!!

 

[jbarcher]

Not...quite. God is both just and merciful. Some think this a paradox and impossible, but I differ:

The wrath of God was fulfilled by Christ's death. God had no obligation to provide atonement. The price was paid (thereby being just), yet there was no obligation to pay (thereby being merciful).

"Ok so when God created the heavens, the earth and Man he knew that man would turn against him. He made us this way!"

As others have mentioned, there was a Fall. What God deemed "very good" had sin enter into it, and sin is contrary to life. I could expand on what is called "Total Depravity" but the mention that things are not always as they were; nor are things as they were intended to be, shuts your whole argument down.

Lastly, you unwittingly defeat yourself by bringing in the question of "is it just"? Simply stated, you have no absolute standard by which you can judge "just" or "unjust". Correct me if Buddha had (or even, you) posited an objective standard of right and wrong; an objective moral law which all judgments can be weighed against. I don't think there is an objective morality outside of God. I'll take up this point further, if you like, although I would request it be done by PM, since I don't visit Open forums much. Hence, my argument is this: with no objective moral law, your question of "is it just" is essentially saying nothing--regardless of the answer given, it is all just expressing the answerer's position, which is arbitrary.

 

[Faithful nonbeliever]

Perhaps it may help you to think of God like the ultimate chess computer. He knows all the possible moves that can be made in a game. All though there is a vast number they are finite. Such a computer is always going to win. However the computer does not know what exact moves its human oponent is going to make. But is can still work around those moves to bring about the result that it wants.

Magnify the possible number of moves that can be made, give the chess pieces an element of free will to chose which moves they can make from the range of moves available and give the omniscent chess computer the ability to convert black pieces to white pieces (assuming the computer plays white) then you have a rough and ready model of how predestination and free will work out.

Any removal of our ability not to be kind and nice would be a removal of our free will to some extent. We are the way we are and we have to face up to that reallity one way or another.


On the separate question of what happens to poeple who never know God or Christ the honest answer is that we are not told. 2 Peter (IIRC) has an opaque reference of how Jesus preached in hell, but the meaning of this is far from clear. I think God has resolved this but we simply don't need to know- if you are unwilling to respond to the gospel in this life then you would probably be unwilling to respond to God's plan B. An ominscent and just God who knows everything about you is capable of working that out isn't He?

God is like a chess computer? And the murderer analogy was bad? Well I guess he just doesn't have a fast enough processor then does he. The questions posted are so obvious, but I hear no answers. Either god is playing GI Joes with our lives, or he made a mistake. IMO