The atheist indoctrination project

[WarEagle]

We had Latin in my middle and high school, my sisters and I took it, my daughter took Latin in her high school.
Your local schools don't teach economics? Philosophy was part of the general social studies curriculum

Then you went to a very unique school.

I don't know how kids in school wouldn't interact with a wide variety of people

In the average sixth grade class, how many veterans would you say that you have? How many holocaust survivors? Senior citizens? Crippled people?

Chances are, you sit in class all day with people their own age, of more or less their own background.

It's certainly appropriate to make choices for your own children, but public schools (not government, the government doesn't run the schools)

Actually, they do.

 

[Rossiter]

Of course it's true for all homeschoolers. It's obvious. Whatever extracurricular activities homeschoolers might do, non-homeschoolers spend around 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, studying and interacting with their peers. That's 30 hours a week that homeschoolers don't spend.

Sitting in a classroom doesn't usually involve that much interaction. Maybe they get 6 or 7 more hours of it (most of it at lunch), but that's about the most. I went to school at one point and usually when I wanted to actually have conversations with people it had to be outside of school - 4 min between classes, 15 for lunch, dragging books all over the place so you don't want to stop and talk much - I don't know but I just don't see what more there is to be gotten out of it.

Oh and there wasn't a wide variety of people. Everyone was basically the same, which was okay since we liked each other and all, but it didn't do much for me in that area.

Sorry, I just don't get it. It's not that the interaction one gets in school is worse or anything, just that it doesn't make up for the lack of a good education in districts that don't provide one.

 

[The Bellman]

Actually, it’s not what I said at all. What I said is that my children have just as much interaction with children their own age, they just don’t do it in the place you’d like.

Again, I didn’t say that.

Again, it's precisely what you said:

You're right in that they're not around as many children during school hours as government school children.

My children have plenty of interaction with other children their age. They just don't sit in a classroom with them all day.

You explicitly admit above that your children don't spend their school hours around as many children as those in governement schools. You can complain that you didn't say it all you like, but you did, as all can see.

I said that they socialize in a place other than the classroom, not that they don’t have as much socialization.

Sorry, but you specifically said that they don't have as much socialisation during school hours.

Maybe if you’d been home schooled, you’d be able to read.

Ah, and you have to resort to insult? How sad for you.

 

[The Bellman]

Sitting in a classroom doesn't usually involve that much interaction. Maybe they get 6 or 7 more hours of it (most of it at lunch), but that's about the most. I went to school at one point and usually when I wanted to actually have conversations with people it had to be outside of school - 4 min between classes, 15 for lunch, dragging books all over the place so you don't want to stop and talk much - I don't know but I just don't see what more there is to be gotten out of it.

Well your experience is markedly different to my own and that of everyone I've ever talked to about the subject, including my nephews and neice who are in school now.

Oh and there wasn't a wide variety of people. Everyone was basically the same, which was okay since we liked each other and all, but it didn't do much for me in that area.

Than that is unfortunate. Typically schools here have a wide variety of students from different backgrounds. A school at which all students are (for example) white conservative Christians would, obviously, not be much good at exposing students to other viewpoints. I would feel very sorry for students attending such a school, as well.

Sorry, I just don't get it. It's not that the interaction one gets in school is worse or anything, just that it doesn't make up for the lack of a good education in districts that don't provide one.

I disagree.

 

[Rossiter]

Well your experience is markedly different to my own and that of everyone I've ever talked to about the subject, including my nephews and neice who are in school now.

As far as I recall school days were dominated mainly by teachers droning on about subjects that the students didn't need to know. Maybe it was a particularly bad school though no one seemed to find it worse than usual.

Than that is unfortunate. Typically schools here have a wide variety of students from different backgrounds. A school at which all students are (for example) white conservative Christians would, obviously, not be much good at exposing students to other viewpoints. I would feel very sorry for students attending such a school, as well.

Most of them actually were, and in that case sending kids to school wouldn't be the answer, moving somewhere else would be.

I disagree.

So interacting with peers in a classroom setting is more important to you than actually learning anything in said classroom setting?

 

[The Bellman]

So interacting with peers in a classroom setting is more important to you than actually learning anything in said classroom setting?

Of course not, and I've said several times that there are problems with schools in terms of actually teaching, and I appreciate that that is why some parents homeschool. However, I believe there are other options than homeschooling to address that problem, including looking for more schools or private schools. Of course, I realise that this is not possible for all.

But - make no mistake - I believe interacting with peers is crucial. That is what the vast majority of us spend our working lives doing. Preparing students for doing that fruitfully is one of the most important jobs education has. And homeschooling by its nature can't do it as thoroughly as can public schooling.

 

[WarEagle]

And homeschooling by its nature can't do it as thoroughly as can public schooling.

And yet, we manage to do just that and do it very well.

Go figure.

 

[WarEagle]

Answer a fool not according to his own folly, lest he be made wise in his own eyes.

 

[The Bellman]

And yet, we manage to do just that and do it very well.

So you claim.

 

[wanderingone]

Then you went to a very unique school.

Well I didn't because the local high school where I live now also has economics, latin and philosophy classes (not to mention Chinese, Russian and Arabic) and we're a financialy strapped district with one public high school and taking huge hits over the stupid NCLB rules.

In the average sixth grade class, how many veterans would you say that you have? How many holocaust survivors? Senior citizens? Crippled people?

"crippled" people? I don't know, but my in my daughter's middle school there were numerous children and teachers with various physical disabilities, and children with various learning disabilities either part or full time in the classroom depending on their particular needs.

Last year they participated in programs that included visiting the nearby "reservation" for a a 3 day "camp in" they "exchanged" a day with the kids at the military base, and have a "foster grandparent" program. My daughter lived for a week on the half moon (a reproduction of the boat hudson sailed in) with children and teachers from several middle schools.

You have a holocause survivor in your household? We don't but my oldest daughter had 2 teachers who were holocause survivors (one of them was also my own math teacher when I went to that school) The high school my daughter attended had an entire semester course on "the holocaust" the middle school does a one week "holocaust" learning experience that includes talking to survivors of various genocides. Because we are such a diverse city my children have attended school with children who survived slaughter in liberia, rwanda and bosnia. We have the good fortunate of having two schools on the same street as a conservative and reform synagogue, a senior citizen apartment complex and a greek orthodox church. The learning experiences are plentiful.

In addition my children's learning does not start and end in the school house. I am thrilled that our schools made an effort to use the wonderful resources of our city... but I have no problem using those same resources independent of the school's function, any parent who fails to do so isn't going to do any better if they homeschool.

Chances are, you sit in class all day with people their own age, of more or less their own background.

While I realize many people live in cities that do not have the diversity my children have lived with most people who homeschool also surround themselves with people of the same background.

I am bewildered though by the insinuation that somehow people have no influence on the things their children encounter through school or after school, and on weekends.

And, to be clear I believe in homeschooling for those who want to do it, I just am disgusted by the need so many homeschoolers have to insist they know exactly what goes on in every school in the country, and that public school is terrible for all children. The constant put downs, and sarcasm exhibited by homeschoolers turns many people off to it.

 

[WarEagle]

"crippled" people?

Yes. How many crippled people does she interact with on a given day (and by "interact" I don't just mean sitting in the same classroom as, but actually talks to and learns about the person)?

You have a holocause survivor in your household?

We have two in our community who my children interact with on a near daily basis.

 

[TeddyKGB]

The myth of the poor, half starved government school teacher is just that: a myth.

It's hardly that simple. Salary depends on location, experience, and degree. It takes a decade for a new teacher to make real money. And those with advanced degrees make barely more than bachelors-only teachers, and peanuts compared to university and private-sector.

Most government school teachers are actually very well paid, especially considering that they only work nine months out of the year, get Christmas and Easter break, and have a week long convention in the middle of the school year.

Well, we 9-monthers get paid for 9 months - it's just stretched over 12. But it's funny how mortgages and car notes just keep coming. In any case, I have never gone more than two weeks without working in any summer since I have been teaching. Perhaps married teachers with another solid income can afford to take an entire summer off, but that's the exception in my experience. Don't forget that the school board forces us to take continuing education classes - paid for out of our own pockets.

And what's this "week long convention" and how do I get to be a part of it?

 

[wanderingone]

Yes. How many crippled people does she interact with on a given day (and by "interact" I don't just mean sitting in the same classroom as, but actually talks to and learns about the person)?

She (and most of her classmates) interact with people enough to know not to call people "crippled" Of course she also a cousin who is developmentally disabled and has limited mobility, and several friends who have siblings with various limitations. I'm not sure why you think children who attend public school don't interact with each other in and out of school.

You know you seem to think children just sit all day in school. My kids never sat all day in the same room in dead silence staring at the teacher like they were in a Pink Floyd video. They worked on projects together, made presentations together, took trips together. In elementary school they had different teachers come in to teach various subjects and in middle and high school they move from class to class with different kids.

We have two in our community who my children interact with on a near daily basis.

Uh-huh... and how is that different than any child in public school who has neighbors who have lived through various historical events? Why would going to public school mean they don't have that same interaction? Obviously not everyone is going to have holocaust survivors living on their block, the number of living survivors (assuming you mean the WWII holocaust) is dwindling but most children do meet people outside of school, at church, in their community, at scouts, at sports events etc... If your personal experience is different that would indicate not just a problem regarding the schools you attended but also with your parents....

 

[WarEagle]

She (and most of her classmates) interact with people enough to know not to call people "crippled" Of course she also a cousin who is developmentally disabled and has limited mobility, and several friends who have siblings with various limitations. I'm not sure why you think children who attend public school don't interact with each other in and out of school.

I DID NOT SAY THAT.

<staff edit>

You know you seem to think children just sit all day in school. My kids never sat all day in the same room in dead silence staring at the teacher like they were in a Pink Floyd video.

The rule still is that children are taught to sit quietly and listen to the teacher.

Uh-huh... and how is that different than any child in public school who has neighbors who have lived through various historical events?

It's different because my children do and your children don't.

Why would going to public school mean they don't have that same interaction?

If your children don't have them in their classroom, then they're not interacting with them.

<staff edit>

 

[bunced]

Though sitting in silence whilst a teacher is talking is a sign of respect surely. Having said that, I know that through my school life, my teachers have continuously got us to learn not just through sitting and listening but through group work, through doing projects together, but talking and debating and discussing ideas, through going and doing our own research.

Now, granted, I am unable to talk about the US public education system because I have never experienced it, but I am able to give my experiences from the UK system.

I have benefited enormously from having teachers who were specialised in their subjects, something which I think home-schooling is unable to emulate. For my history teacher, I have someone who has done a degree in history and who has dedicated his life to historical knowledge. For my Spanish classes, I have a Spanish lady, which gives me unparalleled access in terms of quality of teaching.

In my current tutor group (of only 23 people) I am unable to interact with people from a huge variety of backgrounds! I have 2 Polish girls, 4 French people, 2 German girls, 1 person who has lived in Spain for 8 years. My best friend is Swiss German. In my classes I have people who are strongly for slapping Children and people who are strongly against. Strongly pro immigration and strongly against it. I have people who are devoted Christians and people who are fierce atheists. And we still have a community that is really strong. Despite our differences. Despite our religious backgrounds - I go to a college where you would find devout Muslim living next to Atheist living next to Church of England living next to Strict Baptist living next to Sikh living next to me - and we all get on fine, we all show tolerance and respect to each other, we are all part of one community. We spend our lunches together, our breaks together. We laugh together, we argue together and we cry together.

Now, I am not for a moment saying that home-schooling doesn't teach tolerance or respect. But I am saying that state schooling, in my experience at least, is not nearly as bad as you are making it out to be. There is, in my college - which is representative of colleges as a whole in the UK - a genuine interaction between people of different backgrounds.

And in some ways, such as the depth of knowledge and the resources teachers are able to give, it is vastly superior, for one or two people on their own are unable to emulate this depth of knowledge.

State schooling, again, at least in the UK, also teaches independence. From the age of 11, children are taught that they cannot coming running to someone every time they have a problem. They are forced to take responsibility for their actions. They are forced to organise themselves, to plan their work around very busy days, to learn how to leave aside time for socialising.

Now, it is true that home-schooling can provide this to some extent. But I think that there is potential for much greater personal responsibility when one is part of a large community such as a state school.

One other thing I would say. Before I moved to my current college this September, I spent 5 years in the same school, in pretty much the same class. Over that course of time, I got to know my friends inside out. But we had some hairy times too. We had to learn what each other's boundaries were. We had to learn the consequences of our own action. We had to learn that sometimes it was necessary to give space to people, to allow them time to themselves. We sometimes had to say things that were harsh in order to clear the air. But because of that, we are still really good friends now.

I would argue that such a learning curve is only possible in terms of a long term social situation, something that I feel that home schooling is unable to provide. It is only because I was stuck with them 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 45 weeks a year for 5 years that I was able to get to know them so well, and therefore develop as a person in terms of my interpersonal skills.

Again, this is only in terms of my experience under the UK state school system. I am unable to say what the US system is like. Finally, I am only speaking generally - I am not attacking your method of doing home-schooling or you personally

 

[trunks2k]

Again, this is only in terms of my experience under the UK state school system. I am unable to say what the US system is like.

Generally similar. In my experience, schools use a large amount of in class discussion, especially with older students. In class discussion are less prevalent with younger kids mainly because they lack the knowledge to talk about such a subject, but they have multiple times throughout the day with which to interact with each other (without getting in trouble for it). And all age groups have plenty of group work. War Eagle makes it sound as if the only real socialization kids in school have with each other is during lunch and the few minutes between class, which is certainly not the case.

Then there's things like lunch, recess, after school activities, various student organizations, etc. In terms of socialization, there's nothing that I could think of that a home school would offer that a normal school could not. But I can see it going the other way around. Not saying that home schooled children necessarily don't socialize enough with their peers and others. Just that it's harder for them to get the same level.

 

[woman.at.the.well]

one more item to consider where atheist indocrination is concerned: For an example of an atheist regime's indoctrination, do a google search on "Pite&#351;ti Experiment" or "Dumitru Bacu".

 

[WatersMoon110]

one more item to consider where atheist indocrination is concerned: For an example of an atheist regime's indoctrination, do a google search on "Pite&#351;ti Experiment" or "Dumitru Bacu".

Um...are you honestly saying you can't see the difference between Communists torturing and brainwashing prisoners and some people believing that schools teaching children science is making them into atheists?

 

[Paulos23]

one more item to consider where atheist indocrination is concerned: For an example of an atheist regime's indoctrination, do a google search on "Pite&#351;ti Experiment" or "Dumitru Bacu".

Well that is quite a jump from teaching in schools to soviet communists torturing and brainwashing. I am frighten that you think there is a connection, there is not. No school in the US is brainwashing kids into Atheists. If your are afraid that your kid will pick up values different then yours at school, then don't send them to that school!

But if you do that, you might be denying them an open and varied education. Where science and facts are taught, not myths. Tough choice, but that is what you can do.

 

[Voegelin]

Um...are you honestly saying you can't see the difference between Communists torturing and brainwashing prisoners and some people believing that schools teaching children science is making them into atheists?

We can document 80 years of what officially atheist regimes did. In that we can include the activity of Trofim Lysenko if you wish. He wasn't the only one, just the one who got the most people hurt. You want to see who has hurt and debased science? Look to the Lysenkoists. Look to the eugenicists of the progressive era in America.

To address your second point, I don't know anyone who says teaching science turns children into atheists.