The Assurance of Baptism

[LoveofTruth]

@LoveofTruth I don't believe you addressed this one - Why did Paul baptize the Philippian Jailer along with his entire household in Acts 16?

Paul also allowed this for a time knowing that the Jews were still just accepting the Gentiles but he did say after

1 Corinthians 1:16,17 “And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

He seemed to condescend to the weakness and misunderstanding of many at times.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Actually there were hardly any Jews in Philippi. There weren't even enough to establish a synagogue. If you'll remember when Paul arrived in Philippi they went to the river side because there was no synagogue in the city. It only took 10 men to establish a synagogue.

He was not primarily dealing with Jews in Philippi, but with gentiles. The Philippine jailer was a Gentile. So why, again, did Paul think it was advantageous to baptize him if baptism was only out of respect for Jews?



This only demonstrate an anti-semitism in Philippi.

He was accused of being a Jew and he knew that other Jewish believers may also do work there and so he was aware that the Jews still followed the law and water baptism he allowed this for a time. But later thanked God he water baptized only a few.

 

[Tree of Life]

Paul also allowed this for a time knowing that the Jews were still just accepting the Gentiles but he did say after

1 Corinthians 1:16,17 “And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. 17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

He seemed to condescend to the weakness and misunderstanding of many at times.

That's very speculative. You're just imposing your view on these texts and making them fit your view rather than seeing what's plainly in the text.

 

[Tree of Life]

He was accused of being a Jew and he knew that other Jewish believers may also do work there and so he was aware that the Jews still followed the law and water baptism he allowed this for a time. But later thanked God he water baptized only a few.

Good one. Also very speculative and making the text fit your view.

 

[Tree of Life]

Why not just go with the simple and traditional reading of the text? Paul baptized with water because that's what Jesus said to do. What would be the problem with that very plain interpretation?

 

[LoveofTruth]

So to be clear you think "baptize" means "preach"?

No baptism means to immerse into.

As I showed there are many baptisms and yet only one saving baptism and it is not water baptism that saves.

Johns water baptism was under the old covenant and it continued in Acts among the Jews primarily as they also circumcised, went to the temple, offered sacrifice, were zealous of the law and customs and days and times and all the temple worship with priest high priest etc . This was among the Jews who believed as I am showing.

The time of reformation did not happen quickly even though the new covenant started when Jesus shed his blood and died and rise again.

God allowed a time of reformation and transition. We see this all through the book of Acts. If a person misses this then they do not rightly divide the word and will cause Gentiles to do the same things the Jewish believers did and those Jewish believers still tried at times to make the Gentiles come under the same laws and customs. But eventually this was dealt with. However the Jewish believers still were zealous of the law and customs and sacrifices of animals etc all through Acts. Only when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD fovee see this end.

 

[Tree of Life]

No baptism means to immerse into.

We all know what the word literally means. But it's obviously a metaphor. Could you say more about what it is a metaphor of?

 

[LoveofTruth]

That's very speculative. You're just imposing your view on these texts and making them fit your view rather than seeing what's plainly in the text.

Not speculating. Read the previous chapter Acts 15 and see the great disputes and the things said there. Paul has just left there and right after that he still circumcised Timothy in Acts 16 so the Jewish way was still dominating the understanding and Paul also being a Jew would have had to grow in his understanding also.Paul seems to be the first who had a very deep understanding of the New Covenant and the freedoms. Some Jewish believers were not so clear in this. Read Galatians for more info here.

 

[LoveofTruth]

We all know what the word literally means. But it's obviously a metaphor. Could you say more about what it is a metaphor of?

It is by the Spirit that ALL believers are baptized or immersed into one body, that body being the body of Christ. We are baptized into Christ and put in Christ. This is a inward spiritual birth we’re he is in us and we in him. The word “in” or “into” show the spiritual aspect.

1 Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Romans 5:2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

Notice the “into” grace part. We are saved by grace through faith.

Galatians 3:27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Many have been dunked under water but have not been immersed into Christ. If duncking underceater immersed a person into Christ in spirit. Then all who do so would be in Christ. But we know this is not the case. Paul said people received the Spirit by the hearing of faith not by works (Galatians 3, 1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV)

 

[Tree of Life]

It is by the Spirit that ALL believers are baptized or immersed into one body, that body being the body of Christ. We are baptized into Christ and put in Christ. This is a inward spiritual birth we’re he is in us and we in him. The word “in” or “into” show the spiritual aspect.

1 Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Romans 5:2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”

Notice the “into” grace part. We are saved by grace through faith.

Galatians 3:27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Many have been dunked under water but have not been immersed into Christ. If duncking underceater immersed a person into Christ in spirit. Then all who do so would be in Christ. But we know this is not the case. Paul said people received the Spirit by the hearing of faith not by works (Galatians 3, 1 Cor 15:1-4 KJV)

Paul teaches that only the Holy Spirit can effect the spiritual baptism of salvation. But you say that the apostles were commissioned to do this. How can apostles baptize people into Christ?

 

[lsume]

Nope.

This is what the Christians of the first century believed:


Here is a selection from chapter 16 of the ninth Similitude of the Shepherd of Hermas (early second century):

They were obliged,” he answered, “to ascend through water in order that they might be made alive; for, unless they laid aside the deadness of their life, they could not in any other way enter into the kingdom of God. … For,” he continued, “before a man bears the name of the Son of God he is dead; but when he receives the seal he lays aside his deadness, and obtains life. The seal, then, is the water: they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive. And to them, accordingly, was this seal preached, and they made use of it that they might enter into the kingdom of God.” (Shepherd of Hermas)

and this:

Here is a selection from the eleventh chapter of the Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) describing baptism:

“This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

and this also:

Next consider the second century bishop of Lyon, St. Irenaeus (b. 115-130, d. around 200 AD). In his work titled Against Heresies, he writes,

And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith. (A.H., I.21)

I definitely believe that people of conviction towards Christ should be baptized in water. I am not the judge. This is especially true of Baptism. I wanted to share that when you are baptized in fire and The Holy Spirit, the water Baptism becomes very clear.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Why not just go with the simple and traditional reading of the text? Paul baptized with water because that's what Jesus said to do. What would be the problem with that very plain interpretation?

The problem is that Jesus said for them to preach the gospel in Mark 16 and he that believes that gospel and is baptised shall be saved. If we do not define what Jesus means by baptism here then some have added water baptism to the gospel “to be saved”. But 1 Cor15:1-4 shows no water baptism or any ordinance added to the gospel to be saved.

Jesus did not use the word “water” there. As I have shown baptisms are not all about water. There are many baptisms in scripture and water is not used in all cases.

The burden of proof is on those who add the words “water baptism “ here.

I see those who “believe”
are those who have “faith” and the baptism as the immersion by the Spirit into Christ. This would be the grace part. So by grace we are saved through faith and we enter INTO this grace (or are immersed into this grace) by faith.

So

Believe- faith

Baptised - grace

Peter defines the saving baptism andcsays it is not an outward washing but an inward work 1 Peter 3:21

 

[LoveofTruth]

Paul teaches that only the Holy Spirit can effect the spiritual baptism of salvation. But you say that the apostles were commissioned to do this. How can apostles baptize people into Christ?

They preach and teach with the power of God and by a manifestation of the Spirit commend themselves to every mans conscience and God shines in the hearts of those who hear the Spirit led word.
Paul said

1 Thessalonians 2:13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”

1 Peter 1:23-25 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 25. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

Acts 10:44. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.”

1 Peter 1:12. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”

2 Corinthians 4:2-6 “But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Paul teaches that only the Holy Spirit can effect the spiritual baptism of salvation. But you say that the apostles were commissioned to do this. How can apostles baptize people into Christ?

They immersed them through teaching and preaching into the NAME (character power life virtue authority) ofthe Father the Son and the Holy Ghost

Jesus said he kept them in the name of the Father and manifested the name of the Father. Now the name of the Son and the Holy Ghost is revealed and the knowledge of the Lord and His work is fully known.

 

[Tree of Life]

@LoveofTruth I believe we should agree to disagree.

 

[LoveofTruth]

@LoveofTruth I believe we should agree to disagree.

I think there is lots to talk about still

Read Mark 16:15,16 and note that Jesus told them to preach the gospel, the gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4 so we see in the gospel they heard and believed and were saved. There was no water baptism added. So when Jesus said that those who believe the gospel and are baptised shall be saved he must not be referring to water baptism or else aPaul’s gospel would be different from the gospel Jesus refers to .

 

[Tree of Life]

I think there is lots to talk about still

There's not.

Read Mark 16:15,16 and note that Jesus told them to preach the gospel, the gospel is 1 Cor 15:1-4 so we see in the gospel they heard and believed and were saved. There was no water baptism added. So when Jesus said that those who believe the gospel and are baptised shall be saved he must not be referring to water baptism or else aPaul’s gospel would be different from the gospel Jesus refers to .

I find your position very obtuse and absurd. I cannot afford to entertain it any longer.

 

[LoveofTruth]

There's not.



I find your position very obtuse and absurd. I cannot afford to entertain it any longer.

BUt you have not answered any of the scriptural evidence I give.

My position is that water baptism is not needed at all today and it was a left over from Johns old covenant water baptism similar to the divers washings under the law that were imposed upon Israel. And that the early Jewish believers continued in as they also did in keeping the law, animal sacrifices, going to the temple and the priesthood there, circumidision and many other Jewish customs.

 

[Tree of Life]

BUt you have not answered any of the scriptural evidence I give.

My position is that water baptism is not needed at all today and it was a left over from Johns old covenant water baptism similar to the divers washings under the law that were imposed upon Israel. And that the early Jewish believers continued in as they also did in keeping the law, animal sacrifices, going to the temple and the priesthood there, circumidision and many other Jewish customs.

You didn't give any scriptural evidence. I understand your position. I showed you several examples where gentile converts are baptized in the book of Acts. You have failed to explain this phenomena and have introduced wild speculations to warp the Scriptures to your own view. I won't address you on this topic any longer.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You didn't give any scriptural evidence. I understand your position. I showed you several examples where gentile converts are baptized in the book of Acts. You have failed to explain this phenomena and have introduced wild speculations to warp the Scriptures to your own view. I won't address you on this topic any longer.

I have many scriptures and they are all sound.