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Q, is that an attempt to answer my question? Or simply to attack the poster instead of addressing the post?
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The Assumption of Mary
- Thread starter Slaol121
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Q, is that an attempt to answer my question? Or simply to attack the poster instead of addressing the post?
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Evidently,the RCC. It's declaring DOGMAS with some frequency (last in 1950 - ah, which one was that?), some say another one about Mary will be made so in our lifetimes....
Did you read my question? Did you want to address it?
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I just find it interesting that there seems to be little awareness that determining that something is not important enough to be dogmatic is an equally dogmatic opinion when you hit the bottom line.
In terms of your question, there have been volumes written on the topic. For me personally, I think there is a modern trend to view the humanity of Christ as simply a means to an end rather than an intricate part of the Divine plan. Consequently there is also a trend to see his humanity as having little consequence in the here and now, which I would say is false and can lead to all sorts of other misconceptions. His honoring his mother with the gift of the assumption attests to both his divinty (he had the power to do so) and his humanity(following the command to honor his mother) as being in union forevermore - the doctrine of the hypostatic union clearly demonstrated through his actions.
Bottom line -- can one honor one's mother by letting her flesh decompose when one had the power to prevent that? Why would anyone think Christ would take the Father's command to honor his mother so lightly, or believe it had an expiration date?
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Josiah said:Let's say that Mary is the Mother of Jesus - who is the Incarnate Second Person...
How does THAT substantiate that it is a matter of highest importance and relevance, and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary was Assumed into Heaven upon Her death (or was it undeath)?
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Bottom line -- can one honor one's mother by letting her flesh decompose when one had the power to prevent that?
1. I'm just not following how your response has anything whatsoever to do with my question...
2. POSSIBLE does not equal DOGMA. Is it possible that there are 6 billion furry brown critters on the Moon of Endor? I think so, "with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" we are told twice in Scripture. But do YOU accept that ERGO it is DOGMA that there are 6 billion furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor? I'm going to leap to a guess that you probably don't - thus you reject your own rubric, your own apologetic, your own argument. Out of hand. Why should we not all agree with you that the argument is moot and baseless (if not silly)?
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So you think that something which has been believed(dogma or not) by millions of Catholic and Orthodox Christians for centuries equates to believing there are furry creatures on some moon? Not much respect for our beliefs.
Can't see how you think that I'm out of step with my own apologetics -- I believe the Catholic church has the authority to establish a belief that's been part of the fabric of Christianity for centuries and declare it as dogma. Perfectly consistent here.
The issue I see with your consistency is not that you disagree with either the belief or the Catholic church's right to elevate it to dogma. That would be consistent with your tradition.
The problem is you cry foul when someone else is faithful to their own tradition, which ironically elevates yourself to that place of authority which thou doth protest against. That's inconsistency.
Can't see how you think that I'm out of step with my own apologetics -- I believe the Catholic church has the authority to establish a belief that's been part of the fabric of Christianity for centuries and declare it as dogma. Perfectly consistent here.
The issue I see with your consistency is not that you disagree with either the belief or the Catholic church's right to elevate it to dogma. That would be consistent with your tradition.
The problem is you cry foul when someone else is faithful to their own tradition, which ironically elevates yourself to that place of authority which thou doth protest against. That's inconsistency.
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Josiah said:narnia59 said:Josiah said:Let's say that Mary is the Mother of Jesus - who is the Incarnate Second Person... How does THAT substantiate that it is a matter of highest importance and relevance, and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary was Assumed into Heaven upon Her death (or was it undeath)?
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Bottom line -- can one honor one's mother by letting her flesh decompose when one had the power to prevent that?
1. I'm just not following how your response has anything whatsoever to do with my question...
2. POSSIBLE does not equal DOGMA. Is it possible that there are 6 billion furry brown critters on the Moon of Endor? I think so, "with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" we are told twice in Scripture. But do YOU accept that ERGO it is DOGMA that there are 6 billion furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor? I'm going to leap to a guess that you probably don't - thus you reject your own rubric, your own apologetic, your own argument. Out of hand. Why should we not all agree with you that the argument is moot and baseless (if not silly)?
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So you think that something which has been believed(dogma or not) by millions of Catholic and Orthodox Christians for centuries equates to believing there are furry creatures on some moon?
Lost me. Entirely lost me. READ the exchange.
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I have read the exchange; perhaps it is not as clear as you perceive.
Why don't you explain why you are so troubled by a church believing it has the authority to determine it's own dogma, and if that applies to all groups or just Catholics?
Why don't you explain why you are so troubled by a church believing it has the authority to determine it's own dogma, and if that applies to all groups or just Catholics?
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Josiah said:Let's say that Mary is the Mother of Jesus - who is the Incarnate Second Person... How does THAT substantiate that it is a matter of highest importance and relevance, and greatest certainty of Truth that Mary was Assumed into Heaven upon Her death (or was it undeath)?
Why don't you explain why you are so troubled by a church believing it has the authority to determine it's own dogma, and if that applies to all groups or just Catholics?
1. Perhaps you can explain how your question is an answer to mine?
2. The LDS can say, "We believe this...." It's perhaps a different issue to say, "this is a dogmatic fact of highest importance and relevance to faith and salvation and the greatest certainty of Truth." But yeah - if you don't care if the LDS calls you apostate for not thinking similarly, then perhaps none should care if the RCC does. But, while an interesting discussion of sorts, it just has nothing whatsoever to do with my question.
3. Yes, on another note (not raised by me or any other I know of in this thread), there ARE two issues here: Is it true? Is it dogma? Lots of Catholics believe that the Shoud of Turin is authentic and the very Shoud of Jesus - and we could discuss that. But it's not Dogma in the RCC; one can be bona fide member (even a priest) and deny that it is authentic. Something one is PERMITTED to believe is different than what one is condemned for not believing. I agree. But I'd invite you to stick to the issue of the thread.
BTW, I don't - for a second - deny the Assumption of Mary. The issue here is: is it true? Apples and oranges. And yes - if you insist on raising another issue: is it Dogma, a matter of highest importance/relevance and certainty of Truth (there's not MUCH dogma in Catholicism, but this is one of those fairly rare examples of it).
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You don't deny the Assumption of Mary, but the issue for you is: is it true? As in you profess you don't know, I suppose?
Why on earth would you think you would be considered an apostate by the Catholics for not believing this?
And the issue of the thread was why Catholics would believe this, and I answered that in a post but you said it wasn't relevant.
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For we read from the teaching of the scripture that it is Jesus that forever lives to intecede for us. We do not see any one else being mentioned forever living to intercede for us.I don't even get what this rant means.
Mary does pray for us and intercedes for us. Get over it.
You may believe this but it does not make it truth.
Yes? You keep repeating this as if it is meaningful. Maybe you would like to explain?
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I have read every foul name and or argument against the obtuse heretic to make this or that claim in all the writings since the dawn of Christianity.
Its not a wonder the Lord kept them intact.
Be that as it may - not once, no not a single time, never and not at all has anyone made any such claim to have stolen, owned, hid away, or otherwise had possession of the relics of the Theotokos.
Not once, not ever.
Not one time did history mention where her body was taken to, only an empty tomb.
She died while St John lived... and he had great news to share face to face.
News too important or exciting to put in a letter...
Naturally wanting to hold someone tight in sheer joy...
My guess, the Assumption of our Lady.
Being that - not one time has her relics been mentioned throughout history and if you know history - you would know her relics would be the highest price of all Saints and the most coveted.
But like Moses, Elijah and Henoch, who were not even His flesh of His flesh - she was taken away from the stench and corruption of satan - that is - flesh decay.
You cannot disprove her Assumption - but we know if God is willing to take the righteous to Heaven bodily - it makes most sense that He take her.
Its not a wonder the Lord kept them intact.
Be that as it may - not once, no not a single time, never and not at all has anyone made any such claim to have stolen, owned, hid away, or otherwise had possession of the relics of the Theotokos.
Not once, not ever.
Not one time did history mention where her body was taken to, only an empty tomb.
She died while St John lived... and he had great news to share face to face.
News too important or exciting to put in a letter...
Naturally wanting to hold someone tight in sheer joy...
My guess, the Assumption of our Lady.
Being that - not one time has her relics been mentioned throughout history and if you know history - you would know her relics would be the highest price of all Saints and the most coveted.
But like Moses, Elijah and Henoch, who were not even His flesh of His flesh - she was taken away from the stench and corruption of satan - that is - flesh decay.
You cannot disprove her Assumption - but we know if God is willing to take the righteous to Heaven bodily - it makes most sense that He take her.
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So you don't pray, do you? After all, it would be unbiblical for you to make intercessions for yourself, and this is definitely depraved: Prayer Requests - Christian Forums
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I pray without ceasing. Thanks for asking. But I pray and agree on earth. Mary has never met me and I really don't believe she is omnipresent knowing what goes down here on earth.
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So since Scripture tells us that the angels rejoice over every sinner (on earth) who repents, can I assume you believe they're omnipresent?
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Would you please quote St. John.
If whatever this is was regarded by God as being TOO IMPORTANT to include in His Scripture, why does the RCC disagree with God?
Please disprove that there are furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor. Can't? Does THAT mean that ergo it is DOGMA?
Do you say to Mormons, "WHATEVER you say is Dogma unless I can DISPROVE it?" IF so, disprove that God inspired the words on the two tablets Joseph Smith found? Or do you reject the very argument you yourself use?
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Angels are much different than those of man and woman who have went to be with the Lord.
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I'm sure they are similar in some ways and different in others. That's not the point. You and others keep making the assertion that the saints in heaven can't hear or be aware of those on earth because that would require them to be omniscient and/or omnipresent.
Either you are incorrect and there is a way for a creature in heaven to be aware of what's happening on earth without these qualities, or the angels possess these qualities. Which is it?
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