The Assumption of Mary

[Bryne]

So since Scripture tells us that the angels rejoice over every sinner (on earth) who repents, can I assume you believe they're omnipresent?

I would say that the omnipresent God tells them about it.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

So since Scripture tells us that the angels rejoice over every sinner (on earth) who repents, can I assume you believe they're omnipresent?

Let's say they are.... how does that substantiate as dogmatic fact that Mary was Assumed into Heaven upon Her death (or was it undeath)?








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[narnia59]

I would say that the omnipresent God tells them about it.

Certainly a plausible theory.

Still provides evidence that there are indeed ways a creature in heaven could know what's happening on earth without having qualities reserved for God alone.

 

[narnia59]

Let's say they are.... how does that substantiate as dogmatic fact that Mary was Assumed into Heaven upon Her death (or was it undeath)?








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As far as I know it doesn't; I was just responding to Mamaz's assertion that Mary would have to be omnipresent to know what is going on on earth. You can ask her what that has to do with the assumption if you want.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

As far as I know it doesn't

Thank you. Just TRYING to connect the dots, lol.

Blessings.




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[WarriorAngel]

I'm sure they are similar in some ways and different in others. That's not the point. You and others keep making the assertion that the saints in heaven can't hear or be aware of those on earth because that would require them to be omniscient and/or omnipresent.

Either you are incorrect and there is a way for a creature in heaven to be aware of what's happening on earth without these qualities, or the angels possess these qualities. Which is it?

Also Saints will judge the nations.
Doesn't seem like they are out of the picture in the slightest.


HERE CJ is the quote from John.
2 John 1:12
Having more things to write unto you, I would not by paper and ink: for I hope that I shall be with you, and speak face to face: that your joy may be full.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Would you please quote St. John.

If whatever this is was regarded by God as being TOO IMPORTANT to include in His Scripture, why does the RCC disagree with God?






Please disprove that there are furry brown critters living on the Moon of Endor. Can't? Does THAT mean that ergo it is DOGMA?

Do you say to Mormons, "WHATEVER you say is Dogma unless I can DISPROVE it?" IF so, disprove that God inspired the words on the two tablets Joseph Smith found? Or do you reject the very argument you yourself use?





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Always a red herring.

No one can disprove it because her relics are not on earth anywhere.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Always a red herring.

No one can disprove it because her relics are not on earth anywhere.

Unless of course - she didnt exist?
Then it is equal to the Mormon claim of the culture and ppl John Smith created that were never unearthed.

She didnt exist CJ?

 

[Bryne]

Certainly a plausible theory.

Still provides evidence that there are indeed ways a creature in heaven could know what's happening on earth without having qualities reserved for God alone.

Yes, however, that would mean that if I ask a saint to pray for me, then God would have to tell the saint to tell Him my request. Seems a bit convoluted to me.

I do believe that the saints in heaven pray for us. But I don't believe that the saints are to be invoked.

 

[narnia59]

Yes, however, that would mean that if I ask a saint to pray for me, then God would have to tell the saint to tell Him my request. Seems a bit convoluted to me.

I do believe that the saints in heaven pray for us. But I don't believe that the saints are to be invoked.

I somehow doubt the 'telling' occurs in the same way as we would visualize it based upon our physical natures. More of simply being made aware of the request. But this would happen because of our being one in Christ.

I can't get past the part that Christ has united all thing in heaven and earth unto himself, and that there is no division in the body of Christ. If we can 'invoke' each other and not them, that to me is "division".

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

No one can disprove it because her relics are not on earth anywhere.

I see.... THAT makes it DOGMA. Okay.

I have a great uncle. He served as an officer on a submarine during WW2.
Neither he nor his ship was ever found (and no record of her sinking discovered). No bones (or any other body parts or personal property) was found anywhere. So, he was Assumed into Heaven upon His undeath! This is a dogmatic fact of highest importance and relevance and certainty of truth!


[And you find the substantiation for some LDS teachings "baseless"..... Wow]




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[CaliforniaJosiah]

Then it is equal to the Mormon claim of the culture and ppl John Smith created that were never unearthed.

Yes, you have a point (odd YOU'D bring it up, however.....) That whole "lost tribe" culture the LDS says once existed in the Americas - there are no relics of such, just as their are none of Mary. This would prove - to a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty - that the entire culture (people, cities, etc.) was assumed into Heaven. I see how you are applying your apologetic to that issue. Do you really think that's substantiated, however? Honestly?




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[WarriorAngel]

Yah ok Cj,

Dogma was based one a few things.
Scripture:
Henoch, Moses and Elijah all rose bodily... and SHE was His Mother.

Witnesses
Wiritngs on the testimony that she disappeared.

Science:
Her remains are no where on earth.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

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[WarriorAngel]

Yes, you have a point (odd YOU'D bring it up, however.....) That whole "lost tribe" culture the LDS says once existed in the Americas - there are no relics of such, just as their are none of Mary. This would prove - to a dogmatic fact of highest importance and greatest certainty - that the entire culture (people, cities, etc.) was assumed into Heaven. I see how you are applying your apologetic to that issue. Do you really think that's substantiated, however? Honestly?




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Odd that i would bring up after quoting you saying this??
Really??

Do you say to Mormons, "WHATEVER you say is Dogma unless I can DISPROVE it?" IF so, disprove that God inspired the words on the two tablets Joseph Smith found? Or do you reject the very argument you yourself use?

Do you even notice what you are saying?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

EXACTLY...

Just trying to figure out what you consider substantial confirmation for Dogma...



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[WarriorAngel]

St. Ephrem addresses her Divine Son in these words: "Really and truly Thou and Thy Mother are alone entirely beautiful. Neither in Thee nor in Thy Mother is there any stain."


CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Assumption of Mary

 

[datgnat]

Maybe I'm confused, but I don't see what purpose it serves to venerate Mary in such a manner. So we could have something else to disagree on? That's convenient, if you're the enemy... not so much for the body of Christ though. I will say one thing-the lifting up of the Mary and her near deification made it very easy for the pagan converts to fake Christianity by simply changing the name of their matriarchs. It wasn't much of a change for them to stop praying to Artemis or Nut and simply pray to Mary instead. To a Christian believer, why would Mary's prayers be better than the prayers of any other believer? She somehow received a better portion of grace than everyone else who calls upon the name of the Lord? I thought everyone was wearing the same garment of righteousness at the marriage supper... maybe I missed something.

 

[narnia59]

Maybe I'm confused, but I don't see what purpose it serves to venerate Mary in such a manner. So we could have something else to disagree on? That's convenient, if you're the enemy... not so much for the body of Christ though.

The ancient churches hold to the veneration of Mary, and yes, when those who left the church abandoned the teaching, I'm sure the enemy was quite pleased at the disunity caused.

Scripture tells us to give honor to those who deserve it based upon what they've done.

I will say one thing-the lifting up of the Mary and her near deification made it very easy for the pagan converts to fake Christianity by simply changing the name of their matriarchs. It wasn't much of a change for them to stop praying to Artemis or Nut and simply pray to Mary instead.

And today's pagans will tell you the same thing about Christ. Do you not know the story of a virgin birth, a death and resurrection, a deity becoming man are all part of pagan mythology? I was told in a thread this week that belief in the Trinity is pagan. Interesting where people choose to draw their lines -- right around what they in particular happen to believe in is okay even though the same type of "evidence" of its being pagan applies. Outside their lines though, pagan applies.

To a Christian believer, why would Mary's prayers be better than the prayers of any other believer? She somehow received a better portion of grace than everyone else who calls upon the name of the Lord? I thought everyone was wearing the same garment of righteousness at the marriage supper... maybe I missed something.

I think you did miss something. My Bible says that our gifts are different according to the grace given us (Romans 12:6) and that "grace is given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift" (Ephesians 4:7).

Christ is commanded by the Father to honor his mother. Can't say he's commanded to honor you or me. What ever would make one think that his gift of grace to her would not reflect his command to honor her? What ever would make one think that our gift of grace would or should be the same?

Scirpture also tells us that there will be twelve thrones for the apostles, and seats of honor at both hands of Christ. This concept of "all are equal in all things" in the kingdom -- not so true. Learning to appreciate our gift of grace while not trying to diminish that of others would be a key part of understanding the kingdom.

 

[datgnat]

The ancient churches hold to the veneration of Mary, and yes, when those who left the church abandoned the teaching, I'm sure the enemy was quite pleased at the disunity caused.

Ancient churches or ancient church? It seems that this belief wasn't propogated until after the church had been established for quite a spell.

Scripture tells us to give honor to those who deserve it based upon what they've done.

You're totally right, she was obedient to God just as so many others have been before her lifetime, during, and after her lifetime. She gave birth to the Messiah, the son of God, but her obedience wasn't any greater than Elizabeth's or Ruth's or Esther's. Yet, though they all had the same heart towards God and His will, why do we only honor Mary in this way?

And today's pagans will tell you the same thing about Christ. Do you not know the story of a virgin birth, a death and resurrection, a deity becoming man are all part of pagan mythology? I was told in a thread this week that belief in the Trinity is pagan. Interesting where people choose to draw their lines -- right around what they in particular happen to believe in is okay even though the same type of "evidence" of its being pagan applies. Outside their lines though, pagan applies.

I hadn't heard of this, but that's interesting. Is this story documented in some way before the advent of Christ or is it speculated to originate predating the Messiah?

I think you did miss something. My Bible says that our gifts are different according to the grace given us (Romans 12:6) and that "grace is given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift" (Ephesians 4:7).

Hmm, my bible says according to the measure of our faith. I suppose we could argue that she indeed has more grace than most of us (even if an angel told me I'd give birth to a healthy son, it would take more than a lionshare of faith for me to believe that too.)

Christ is commanded by the Father to honor his mother. Can't say he's commanded to honor you or me. What ever would make one think that his gift of grace to her would not reflect his command to honor her? What ever would make one think that our gift of grace would or should be the same?

Never thought of it this way... so it's a hierarchal type thing? When not satisfied with lower management, we go to the boss? He won't listen to me, but he'll have to listen if his mom asks him to do it! (This is a joke and even though it's really not funny, please don't be offended. But the idea is still really repugnant to me.)

Scirpture also tells us that there will be twelve thrones for the apostles, and seats of honor at both hands of Christ. This concept of "all are equal in all things" in the kingdom -- not so true. Learning to appreciate our gift of grace while not trying to diminish that of others would be a key part of understanding the kingdom.

You are correct that our rewards will be based upon our heavenly works to further God's kingdom. Does that mean that God cares more about what you pray about if the twelve apostles pray with you than if twelve disciples pray with you? Or will grace be dispensated upon you according to the faith that works in you? (Or maybe the apostles just had more faith than we can ever hope to have... am I just living a pipe dream?)