The Assumption of Mary

[laconicstudent]

## Wrong. STM that we, who use these hymns and prayers, are likely to know our own intentions, and what we mean by the words & ideas we use. You may think we are going too far, but our attitude to the Mother of God hads been explained time and time again.

Would you put up with a Muslim telling what you mean by praising Jesus Christ ? Then please allow us to know whether we are giving the Mother of God what we should not.
## No more so than worshipping a crucified Jew as Almighty God is. To those who do not see Him aright, that is all He is. To those who see who do not see what great things God has done in & for her, Mary the Mother of God is just another woman. Catholic & other non-Protestants see what her Son is, and what she is. Fundamentalists see what her Son is, but not what she is.
## It is not false - you Fundamentalists are the ones who give a title of God the Son to a mere dead book, so don't try lecturing Catholics & Orthodox & members of other ancient churches about blasphemy. If OTOH that book - set of books, rather - is rightly called the Word of God, then what forbids Catholics to call her by titles which properly & fully describe her Son ? If the Bible is anything, it is through the Life-giving Spirit. And the same is true of Mary.

If 1800 years of Christians have done wrong to honour Mary

• not in one place but the world over
• & as Christians wonderful for their God-given holiness have rejoiced to honour Mary
• to speak good things of her
• to defend the rightness of honouring her
• & as those who are separated by many divisions have agreed in praising her
• & as many have arisen in the past to criticise, not abuses only, but the rightness of praising her at all
  
• - so the objections to doing so are not new
• & as converts have been among the most zealous in spreading devotion to Mary
• - some of whom were anti-Christian & anti-Marian
• & as the Protestant churches, who feared that devotion to Mary was obscuring Christ, discouraged devotion to her, and are losing adoration of Him; whereas those whom they called "Mariolatrous" have kept both adoration of Him, & veneration of His Mother.

- is it credible that the Church of Christ could be so utterly mistaken ? To except people to believe such a thing, is asking far too much. That is as credible as the rubbish about her Son being an alien or a hundred other kinds of nonsense.

When we offer the Eucharistic Sacrifice to her, you will be right to complain that we adore her - but not before.
## Not in the slightest. There are others like it, which praise the mother of God on very simlar terms, and that is as it should be. She is worthy of praise and honour and love and devotion, entirely worthy. To se her as the Church sees her is something that for many takes time. And some have eyes to see, while others do not.

Why is it not obvious that the language is at times metaphorical, & necessarily so ? She is more, not less, than any mortal tongue can say. Calling her "Brighter than the sun's rays" is not an expression of an astronomical measurement; it does not mean that she is of the same temperature as Aldebaran or Antares. It is the fault of Fundamentalism, if it cannot distinguish between a hymn to the Virgin & statements of scientific fact. If Fundamentalists can't see the difference between honouring, loving, venerating, admiring & praising the Mother of God OTOH, and the God Whose Wisdom created her for Himself that she might be the Mother of the Son of God, Who is her Creator, Lord, Redeemer, Saviour & God OTOH, then the's no point in trying to show that the Mother of God, & her Divine Son, though very alike, are incommensurable. For Who is unable to see that God is not a creature, & that therefore the holiest of creatures, Mary the Mother of God, cannot possibly be mistaken for her God ? If she is not God, how ius it possible to honour her as though she were ?

To God Almighty the Liturgy is offered; never to the Mother of God. Such a thing is out of the question, because the Church knows very well that sacrifice, an act of adoration, can be offered to God alone. We do not adore the Mother of God. Is the respect shown to those in authority sinful ? By normal Fundamentalist logic it must be - if it not wrong to show honour to those who may be great sinners, but are reckoned honourable because of the offices they hold, how can it be wrong to show honour to Jesus Christ by show respect, love and veneration for those through whom He has glorified Himself ?

YouTube - It Is Truly Meet

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

You conveniently miss out commenting on the Hymn asking Mary to cleanse us from all evil...that is blasphemous, but I daresay I have yanked it out of context, or the translation doesn't really convey the proper meaning.
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I have explained before: the Theotokos is not understood to have her own "power", just as Peter's shadow is said to have healed - but we know the healing was actually by the power of God. It is what Paul describes as God "energizing" the action in or through us.
I also explained that thinking Mary has her "own power" would be akin to thinking she conceived Christ by her own power. Neither is believed.
And I am deeply grieved that you ignore all my efforts to explain things to you - and this is why I tend to think it is your desire to be offended.

I understand what you have been saying Thekla, it just doesn't compute.
One cannot sing or pray one thing and actually mean another...that is completely convoluted, and a 'get out of jail free' card.

Using this type of argument might reflect your own personal approach to things, and is possibly the way you are able to accomodate things that 'appear' inconsistant with Scripture ....but I don't believe everyone thinks like you.

The sad thing is that I could place literally hundreds or even thousands of prayers and hymns to Mary on these boards that show again and again that it is not the Mary of the Bible....sure some of the things attributed to her are correct....but the vast majority elevate her to a god-like status, and this has nothing to do with the L-rds mother that we know and love from Scripture.
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It is even sadder that you would not care to listen to others presenting their own beliefs and understandings, and instead prefer to tacitly claim they lie to you or worse.

I have listened to everyone that has presented things in the threads I have been involved with...I didn't come here with any motive whatsoever....but listening and engaging in passionate argument, does not mean I have to accept what I listen to....if I thought something you said made sense and satisfied my study of these things I would tell you so....but just because you explain things from your point of view, doesn't mean your view is correct, or that I should give way to it, when the facts stare me in the face, and prove stronger than your apologist arguments.

I have gradually realised that just as false Messiahs have been promoted through such teachings as the Mormons or JW's...in which they call Him Jesus, but in actual fact the things they believe about Him, demonstrate they do not know Him. So in a similar way part of the Church have a distorted view about Mary which is why I have found it so hard to understand...but now I think I see that it is another Mary.
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If this is a true concern of yours, why would you not be extraordinarily cautious about distorting what another says to you ? "He who is not trustworthy in the small matter ..."

I honestly don't believe the distortion comes from me....what I see and experience here is the use of 'smoke and mirrors', either through language or interpretation. For example 'venerate' doesn't mean 'worship'....and yet when I look at just what this 'venerating' is all about, there is no way it could mean anything else, and to believe differently is either to have no idea what worship involves, or to be in denial.



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You can say what you like...the very words of the hymns you sing or the prayers you offer to this false Mary, are far more eloquent than your empty denials.
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So you explicitly accuse me of false testimony ?
And of false worship ?
Despite what I say ?

Then of course, if you will to believe this of me, there is indeed no value in continuing the dialogue - indeed, thus there never was a dialogue.

I believe you believe what you say.
I just don't happen to believe what you say is correct.
If you praise and pray to this fascimile Mary then the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I don't force you to have dialogue with me, it seems we are both passionate in what we attempt to get across, and believe it or not I appreciate your time and effort, and have nothing against you in any way whatsoever...I just don't accept the thrust of most of your arguments.

I don't deny that might be a poor translation....I didn't know any better, and got it from what I believe was an Orthodox site. I only deride the game played with semantics, which always takes the heat off the heart of the issue, and re-directs the argument down a side alley.
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Semantics may carry for you a pejorative meaning, but that is semantics -- the linguistic study of the meaning of language. It is a study (like sociolinguistics) which identifies the closer meaning of a term within its cultural and historic mileau, and is essential for matters such as the translation of the Holy Scriptures. Without it, you would not have a translation of the Scriptures - and unfortunately some translations of the Scriptures into English could use a bit more semantic analysis as they fall well short of the Greek sense of the original.

We cannot communicate without first understanding where our use of the same terminology does and does not 'cross'. And without establishing commonly understood meaning/territory, there will not be dialogue - no matter how much we think we are engaging in dialogue.

I agree with what you say regarding 'semantics' in this instance...but I have been involved in too many confrontations not to recognise when it is used in such a way that it obscures the the main issue.

You are wrong...I am not personally offended about any of this....but I am deeply concerned that such blatantly false teachings should continue unchallenged. I don't get any pleasure coming against these things again and again...it gives me no joy saying 'brethren this isn't right, we need to ditch some of these teachings/practices etc'.
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If you have "no personal stake" in this, then why do you refuse to listen and consider what is said to you, to try to actually understand, instead preferring to assume the worst of the person you claim to desire to "help" ?
IE, your refusal to "hear" and your insistence that others are not being straight with you (ex., claiming semantics etc.) approach the psychological meaning of suspicion - not love. How can you actually humanly contact - dialogue - when you are suspicious or worse that others deliberately lie to you ?

You are mistaken. I do listen and I consider deeply what is said to me. My concern is for the Church of which we are all members...I am always open to correction, and I say what I say with a certain amount of trepidation...in other words I see no alternative, I don't enjoy doing it, but I don't seem to have any other choice. I am also aware that I am just some obscure brother who happens to have come across this Forum, and that you know nothing about me or my life-style.

I don't really think people deliberately lie to me...in the past I have been very involved with Christian Cults, and have come to see similar styles of arguments now coming from the lips of my brothers and sisters in Messiah.
I believe the people here are fully convinced in what they believe...but because I am outside of the specific belief system that incorporates Mary, I am naturally more objective...that doesn't mean I am right...but it means I am not submitted to the same things that influence you and others here.

I am aware that from your point of view, that is a disadvantage for me....but either of our views stand or fall on the truth of the word of G-d, ministered to us through the conviction of the Holy Spirit

I don't know what you mean about foreign policies...all I can say is to repeat that until I came here about four months ago, I had no real idea that my Catholic and Orthodox brethren believed some of the things we now argue and discuss...and it troubles my spirit more than I can express...which is why I am compelled to plead for the truth.
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But not enough interest in truth to consider that some may answer you truthfully. Or that truth must include context and meaning.

See above statement. I believe people answer according to what they think is the truth.

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I have also made it very clear that I do not consider myself on any side....I am part of the One Body....not Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant or any other faction....but part of the One True Church made up of Believers washed in the blood of the Lamb....and because of that I cannot keep silent.
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And because I am a member of the body of Christ, I answer you truthfully and receive in return accusation.

Not at all....it is because you are part of the Body, that I am deeply concerned enough to strongly challenge some of your arguments, and the tendency you have displayed to deflect the thrust of certain points that are important...I can't believe no one has ever challenged you about this.

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The Hymn asked Mary to cleanse us from all evil....she does not have either the power or the authority to do such a thing....only G-d. Therefore I am not bearing false witness....I am pointing out that such a thing is blasphemous because it implies she can do what only G-d can do....it is completely ridiculous.
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I have described this before and above - your claims are false.

Yes I know 2+2=5...it all makes sense.
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If you want to continue to justify praise and worship to a false man-made facsimile of the L-rds mother...that is your choice...all the hundreds of years of practice, and the endorsement of foolish men in leadership positions can no longer hide what is now so obvious.
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It seems you are not willing to actually engage in a dialogue.
That's okay.
I do wish you would have been honest on this from the beginning, as I could have saved much time and applied myself to more potentially fruitful endeavors.

I have never been anything but honest...even brutally honest at times...coming to these Forums has changed the way I have seen things...there has been a dramatic evolution to my understanding concerning some elements of Orthodox and Catholic theology...and I have to say, most of it has not been pretty.

I may not be a very diplomatic sort of guy, but I have always been upfront about things....entering into dialogue does not mean I sit back and passively listen to what you or others try to explain....it means if you say things, I will listen, I will consider, I will pray about them, I will check them out, but I will also make up my own mind and repond in what I consider to be an appropriate manner.

I'm sorry if you feel I have wasted your time...I certainly don't feel I have wasted my time, or I wouldn't bother entering into these discussions. I fully understand if you bow out of things, and I wish you nothing but the full blessings of G-d in your life. In Messiah. Zazal

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[WarriorAngel]

You all just do not get it... all praise of Mary...is because of her doing GOD'S will, but all praise is actually because of the glory of God.

When we praise Mary - NOT worship her mind you - but praise her as our Queen, it is only due because of the Lord...because of HIS Handwork in her.
IT is His power and might that wrought us the Virgin who would remain faithful to Him.

And in proper understanding, when she is praised, it is only because of the work God did unto her. And we honor her because she was cooperative to His will and did it perfectly.

SOmeone said - she didnt know Who He was...not really.

I find that amazing to believe because - an angel told her Who He would be, and she conceived by God, and she is filled and was filled prior to Gabriel with Graces and highly favored.. which should mean if by God highly favored, then highest favored for a human.
I think Mary was anything BUT obtuse.

As a Jewish woman, she knew the scriptures being filled with grace - she knew what it entailed. She took it on... to serve the Lord at a higher position that any other man woman or child on earth.

The mother of the King is the Queen.

Who set up the kingdoms on earth in the Judaic tribes? God did.
As an allegory to Heaven.

WE say ALL GLORY AND PRAISE TO OUR LORD.
We mean that - and part of HIS GLORY AND PRAISE is the praise of His Creature...Mary His Mother.

For this HE is pleased. For her, He gives high favor....ie - she is HIS favorite.

 

[WarriorAngel]

To put it in proper perspective, if your child does a wonderful job at something...you praise them.

You tell them how wonderful they did that job.. and make an extra effort to make sure they know.

With gratitude we give honor to our Lady because of her extra effort to do well - gave us our Savior, thru her efforts according to God.

I cannot stress enough the scriptures...

Luke 11:27
And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck.
[28] But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

Matthew 12:50
[47] And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. [48] But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? [49] And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren.
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.


This often misunderstood, misquoted and twisted scriptures MUST be conceptually understood....

1) Mary was not blessed because she was a physical character to His birth - no He said rather - because she did the will of His Father. [And she kept His word]
She could not have been His Mother without her consent, God doesnt work that way.
2) To be blessed is to be highly honored...
3) All generations shall call her Blessed. [And so all in the Church have done so without a skip]

Praise or honor always differs from the Lord / and that of His creatures.
Praise itself has many levels... but none have praise over or above God.
A creature can be praised through what God has done for them.... And we can praise God for what He has done for His creature.

TOO many people legalistically sterilize the scriptures and thinking it is impossible to honor His creatures.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Look at it this way - without her a humble human, God could not have come to do as He said.
She kept His word... she helped make HIM possible.

She was already granted the graces from God - per the Greeting of the Angel.
She was already made for this - she was made from the beginning.
It was not happenstance.

BUT - it came down to her accepting it - as opposed to Eve who went against the Will of God, Mary on the other hand, did the Will of God perfectly.

It would seem, from the many years of being on here, that some would like to denigrate her to a mere physical human God just decided one day to pick someone.
Yet the time was right, and He set her up and His engagement to become Flesh at an ordained time.

Had she not done His will, had she not 'kept His word' which was His promise... then the prophesies would have been moot point.

He so trusted in her - and the grace He gave her [much as He gave to Eve] but with her free will, He was able to KEEP HIS WORD perfectly at the ordained time.

All of this stood on one thing - HER cooperation - in keeping His word [His Promises through all the ages] HAD she refused... is not bearing to think of.
It's unimaginable.

BUT He trusted in her, the one to whom He would bestow greatest graces upon - and in order for her to be perfectly accepting of the Will and cooperate her graces were unlike any other.

To undo what Eve had done, she had to be a model likened to Eve, yet because she was surrounded by evil and although did not partake of it, she understood in those graces the need for the Savior.

It was the granted graces of HIGHEST proportions of grace - that helped her understand the need for why and how we all needed a Savior, as opposed to Eve who had not yet known good and evil in comparison.

Although she was kept from being evil, or doing evil for the sake of COOPERATING with God and keeping His promises... and being the perfect flesh of His flesh...
She too would have done evil had she refused.

Do not take her role as though it's another day, or another thing...
Everything - our salvation and God's Promises hinged on her acceptance to do His will.

Lest you take it all for granted...it should not be dismissed as it is.

Some dont get it...some really dont get it.


ADDING: He did not need to bend her will either - like so many prophets who didnt want the task.
She gave perfectly at the first moment.

AGAIN, Doing as she did - our salvation hinged on God keeping His word... and to so He needed her. We needed her...
God is God, His will is perfect.
Humans have free will, and had she not been bestowed the highest forms of grace and perfection, which God ordained so she would cooperate for her sake as well as ours, we may not be here now.

ONE - yes one human didnt refuse nor need to negotiate with God.. one human trusted fully. AND believe it or not, we all know God is faithful to Himself, but her,,,,a human off the branch of Eve who disobeyed and could have the choice to disobey... did not.

How does one keep the Word of God - by doing what He ordained and prophesied from the beginning.
Thats' complete and absolute trust that His creature would be unlike Adam and Eve and all their descendants...

 

[Thekla]

I understand what you have been saying Thekla, it just doesn't compute.
One cannot sing or pray one thing and actually mean another...that is completely convoluted, and a 'get out of jail free' card.

You mistake in this your understanding for another's understanding, a semantic range of meaning for a single definition that you prefer. It is not dissimilar for mistaking the language of poetry for the language of science, or visiting a foreign culture and assuming that everything there is immediately understood through your own cultural experience.

Using this type of argument might reflect your own personal approach to things, and is possibly the way you are able to accomodate things that 'appear' inconsistant with Scripture ....but I don't believe everyone thinks like you.

Nor everyone like you, and I think that it is here you are mistaken. You see through your own bias, and assume your understanding is normative for everyone.

I have listened to everyone that has presented things in the threads I have been involved with...I didn't come here with any motive whatsoever....but listening and engaging in passionate argument, does not mean I have to accept what I listen to....if I thought something you said made sense and satisfied my study of these things I would tell you so....but just because you explain things from your point of view, doesn't mean your view is correct, or that I should give way to it, when the facts stare me in the face, and prove stronger than your apologist arguments.

I think you have come here with a strong bias, and apply this view to things you are unfamiliar with - that have a cultural context unfamiliar to you.

Again, as I have pointed out, you seem to not know the typical prayer "rule" of the EO and the actual percentage of the spiritual life associated with the Theotokos. This is part of the context you miss - the living out of the spiritual life in the EO.

I honestly don't believe the distortion comes from me....what I see and experience here is the use of 'smoke and mirrors', either through language or interpretation. For example 'venerate' doesn't mean 'worship'....and yet when I look at just what this 'venerating' is all about, there is no way it could mean anything else, and to believe differently is either to have no idea what worship involves, or to be in denial.

Seeing how you mistake veneration for worship, I wonder then how "small" your worship of God must be.

I believe you believe what you say.
I just don't happen to believe what you say is correct.
If you praise and pray to this fascimile Mary then the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Academics can spend an entire life-time of research and visits to try an understand a foreign culture, yet you claim to understand a spiritual culture with a comparative glimpse.

I cannot take your claim 'seriously'; it reminds me of the phenomenon of reading a great poem once and claiming to have plumbed the depth of it. (And this sensibility seems to be a cultural view - and reflects also the poor quality of writing that is read.)

I don't force you to have dialogue with me, it seems we are both passionate in what we attempt to get across, and believe it or not I appreciate your time and effort, and have nothing against you in any way whatsoever...I just don't accept the thrust of most of your arguments.

I am passionate to correct mistaken understanding - I do not expect to convince anyone of practice but to strike at misunderstanding. This refusal to "see through the eyes of another" has a long and tragic history - in foreign policy for one.

I agree with what you say regarding 'semantics' in this instance...but I have been involved in too many confrontations not to recognise when it is used in such a way that it obscures the the main issue.

Again, you seem to see through a strong bias.

You are mistaken. I do listen and I consider deeply what is said to me. My concern is for the Church of which we are all members...I am always open to correction, and I say what I say with a certain amount of trepidation...in other words I see no alternative, I don't enjoy doing it, but I don't seem to have any other choice. I am also aware that I am just some obscure brother who happens to have come across this Forum, and that you know nothing about me or my life-style.

To consider deeply, to understand another takes a great deal more time and inspection that what you have presented here.
It also requires a deep sensitivity to the "other", a deep commitment to relation seeking. It is the core quality that makes possible deep relationship with others - without it, we are actually only relating to ourselves and our biases. It is needed to learn and grow, and it is needed to have humility -- not to assume that we know "all" of something through a cursory consideration.

I don't really think people deliberately lie to me...in the past I have been very involved with Christian Cults, and have come to see similar styles of arguments now coming from the lips of my brothers and sisters in Messiah.
I believe the people here are fully convinced in what they believe...but because I am outside of the specific belief system that incorporates Mary, I am naturally more objective...that doesn't mean I am right...but it means I am not submitted to the same things that influence you and others here.

The EO is not a cult - nor does it have the features of a cult (in the modern pejorative sense of the term). It is however a "culture of understanding", in the sense that it is an approach to life/living out (not unlike there are other secular cultures unlike the one you have been raised in). It is a culture in the way the "culture of mathematics" is unlike the "culture of the study of history" is unlike the "culture of literature"; or the Russian culture is unlike the US culture, and both are unlike the Aboriginal culture of NZ.

I am aware that from your point of view, that is a disadvantage for me....but either of our views stand or fall on the truth of the word of G-d, ministered to us through the conviction of the Holy Spirit

The truth of the word of God cannot be understood through bias. There is a softening of the spiritual heart that is needed, and a humility - humility akin to the sensibility that does not assume what another thinks, understands, or feels.

See above statement. I believe people answer according to what they think is the truth.

One cannot truly hear and also be self-centered in one's understanding.
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Not at all....it is because you are part of the Body, that I am deeply concerned enough to strongly challenge some of your arguments, and the tendency you have displayed to deflect the thrust of certain points that are important...I can't believe no one has ever challenged you about this.

I may have overlooked something, or I may have thought my answer sufficiently addressed the question - and the shortfall may also reflect an entirely different world view. Thus, if you do not understand my foundational understanding, the treatment of details within that foundation will seem lacking - as this reflects a different world-view or foundational understanding (and this is "cultural").

Yes I know 2+2=5...it all makes sense.

This is not mathematics, it is more akin to culture or literary studies.
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I have never been anything but honest...even brutally honest at times...coming to these Forums has changed the way I have seen things...there has been a dramatic evolution to my understanding concerning some elements of Orthodox and Catholic theology...and I have to say, most of it has not been pretty.

But you still seem unfamiliar with core EO theology and praxis; what you see you seem to see so completely through your 'self' that 'when you travel to far destinations you do so as a tourist'.

I may not be a very diplomatic sort of guy, but I have always been upfront about things....entering into dialogue does not mean I sit back and passively listen to what you or others try to explain....it means if you say things, I will listen, I will consider, I will pray about them, I will check them out, but I will also make up my own mind and repond in what I consider to be an appropriate manner.

I do not expect you to be "convinced" of adopting a praxis, but in my experience you do not give yourself to the deep listening and reflection that leads to real understanding. This is not a matter of being "diplomatic", but takes a greater effort. Where that effort is not engaged, there will be no leaning and thus no understanding.

I'm sorry if you feel I have wasted your time...I certainly don't feel I have wasted my time, or I wouldn't bother entering into these discussions. I fully understand if you bow out of things, and I wish you nothing but the full blessings of G-d in your life. In Messiah. Zazal

We have entered the Great Fast, and I would prefer to be less active here.
May God assist us both in a greater turning to "the one thing needful".

I apologize for my inability to adequately communicate, and for any offense.

Doxa to Theo in all things;
Christ with you +

 

[addo]

She could not have been His Mother without her consent, God doesnt work that way.

Actually, God does. God didn't ask Adam if He wanted to take care of the garden. God didn't ask Abraham if He wanted to go to Canaan. God didn't ask Moses, "Do you want to go to the Pharaoh my son?", but He commanded it, and it was done. God didn't ask the Levites if they wanted to be priests. God didn't ask David if he wanted to be King. He commanded and Samuel obeyed and made him King of Israel. God didn't ask Jeremiah if he wanted to be his prophet or not. In the same manner God didn't ask Mary whether she wanted to bring forth Jesus, but He said "you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son and you shall call His name Jesus". God doesn't need Mary's consent.

Look at it this way - without her a humble human, God could not have come to do as He said.

God could have chosen another one.

She kept His word... she helped make HIM possible.

How did she 'keep' His word? What did she do to help His [physical] 'creation'? She only agreed. She said "so be it". God is the one that made her pregnant. It's not like saying, "Abraham obeyed God and went where He told him to". Mary didn't have to do anything. God did it. So just agreeing isn't making His birth possible.

She was already made for this - she was made from the beginning.

Wait ... what? She was made from the beginning? From the beginning of what? Creation? Please don't say creation. That's one of the few things left for a total disaster. Yes, God planned for her to do this from the beginning, but she wasn't made from the beginning.

BUT - it came down to her accepting it - as opposed to Eve who went against the Will of God, Mary on the other hand, did the Will of God perfectly.

No. One's decision do not ruin all the plans of God. What? Was she the only woman in Israel? One of the reasons we call her graceful is because among many women God chose her. She is 'highly favored' because from many women from many times God chose her. Yes, God chose her for a reason. But don't go as far as saying that only she could do it. This is simply not true.

Had she not done His will, had she not 'kept His word' which was His promise... then the prophesies would have been moot point.

The prophecies cannot be broken. If they can, God is a liar, for the prophecies come from God. Mary's will cannot make God a liar.

All of this stood on one thing - HER cooperation - in keeping His word [His Promises through all the ages] HAD she refused... is not bearing to think of.
It's unimaginable.

Had she refused God would have chosen another woman. Some people seem to think that Mary is the only woman that could ever do that job. She isn't. But she is 'called blessed' because from many possible choices, God chose her. God chose to be graceful to her.

Do not take her role as though it's another day, or another thing...
Everything - our salvation and God's Promises hinged on her acceptance to do His will.

Mary cannot make God a liar. He said that the Messiah would come. Mary's will cannot change that. Had she refused (1) God would have chosen another or (2) she would have still done His will, like with Balaam. Maybe He wouldn't have spoken to her in the first place knowing her response beforehand.

ONE - yes one human didnt refuse nor need to negotiate with God.. one human trusted fully.

I can think of another one: Abraham. He trusted God fully, that He would truly give him a descendant and that He would make a great nation our of him, that he would be a blessing, and that one day his descendants will inherit the Promised Land.

 

[Zeek]

We have entered the Great Fast, and I would prefer to be less active here.
May God assist us both in a greater turning to "the one thing needful".

I apologize for my inability to adequately communicate, and for any offense.

Doxa to Theo in all things;
Christ with you +

Hi Thekla, I have read your post, and will continue to consider some of the things you responded to, and because of your fast, will just mention a couple of things.

One of your arguments is that to really understand things I have to get into the shoes of an Orthodox Believer, otherwise I will just get a tourist type glimpse of what really goes on. Also that by focusing on a few points outside their main context, I lose the thrust and the importance of the rest of a persons spititual life.

I am aware of these things, and someone like me is always going to be at a disadvantage because I do not belong to the Othodox or Catholic tradition, and am not considered 'close family'...therefore anything I say is going to have a certain weight of prejudice against it.

I truly understand that you and others here are my brethren, that you love the L-rd, and seek to live a righteous life, and that when I attack certain things within your belief system, I do not endear myself to you, or help in the formation of a relationship from which we can discuss things in a more objective manner.

I do not think I have any intential bias though...I come merely as a Believer amongst other Believers, and even in my ongoing discovery of some of the unbiblical practices of my fellow Believers, I have learnt things, been humbled at times, and appreciate everyones willingness to engage, even when they strongly disagree or come to the defence of what I consider the indefensible...in fact I would go so far as to say, that even in the heat of these discussions and arguments I have been aware of a certain level of restraint and accomodation that I have not seen with some of my other brethren from a more evangelical tradition.

I agree whole-heartedly with your prayer, and I have never once been offended by anything you have said. So because of your fast I will not address further the things you have written, and will sit on my typing hands ...so to speak.

May G-d bless and encourage you through this period, may His word be a lamp to your feet and a light to your path.

In our Messiah. Zazal

 

[Zeek]

##

Originally Posted by Zazal

......and for those interested, here are the words the first Hymn.

PURE VIRGIN QUEEN, IMMACULATE MOTHER OF GOD,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
VIRGIN MOTHER, QUEEN, COVERING US LIKE A PERFECT GARMENT
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HIGHEST OF HEAVENS, BRIGHTER THAN THE SUN'S RAYS,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
DELIGHT OF VIRGIN CHOIRS, SUPREME OF ALL ANGELS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
BRIGHTER THAN THE SKIES, CLEARER THAN LIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
HOLIEST OF ALL HEAVENLY LEGIONS OF SAINTS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, QUEEN NYMPH, SOURCE OF OUR DELIGHT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MODEST MAIDEN, QUEEN, HOLIEST MOTHER
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MOST HONOURED OF CHEROUVEIM, MOST GLORIOUS
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
OF THE BODILESS SERAPHEIM HIGHEST OF ALL THRONES
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MARY, EVER VIRGIN LADY OF THE UNIVERSE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
IMMACULATE, ALL PURE NYMPH, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU OUR LADY HEAR YOUR SUPPLICANT,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
YOUR BLESSING I SEEK, QUEEN.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
MAIDEN MODEST, IMMACULATE, HOLIEST LADY.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
I BEG YOU, SACRED TEMPLE,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
TAKE NOTICE OF ME AND CLEANSE ME FROM ALL EVIL,
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!
AND INTERCEDE FOR ME TO EARN THE ETERNAL LIFE.
HAIL BRIDE UNWEDDED!

​

...............................................................................................

I wish I could rejoice and sing this hymn...but I can't, it is so obviously rife with literal unequivocal worship of Mary that it demonstrates beyond any doubt that the whole semantic word games that try to show she is merely venerated, and people just honour her, are utterly false....nor is there any ambiguity to the context, it is a hymn of praise and adoration that attributes G-ds sovereign authority to her.
​

## Wrong. STM that we, who use these hymns and prayers, are likely to know our own intentions, and what we mean by the words & ideas we use. You may think we are going too far, but our attitude to the Mother of God hads been explained time and time again.

I see, so you speak in a kind of Christian code....where the plain meaning of the words is actually hidden...interesting!

Would you put up with a Muslim telling what you mean by praising Jesus Christ ? Then please allow us to know whether we are giving the Mother of God what we should not.

So as a fellow Believer who believes the same Scriptures as you, I cannot determine from your words what is going on...give me a break.

It is undoubtably blasphemous,
## No more so than worshipping a crucified Jew as Almighty God is. To those who do not see Him aright, that is all He is. To those who see who do not see what great things God has done in & for her, Mary the Mother of God is just another woman. Catholic & other non-Protestants see what her Son is, and what she is. Fundamentalists see what her Son is, but not what she is.

That is pure invention....I am very aware of who Mary is, the Bible clearly defines her role...and it is not as a god-like being.

...you Fundamentalists are the ones who give a title of God the Son to a mere dead book, so don't try lecturing Catholics & Orthodox & members of other ancient churches about blasphemy.

Oooh, nasty....who revealed to you I was a Fundie anyway?
Your comment has entered the dimly lit corridors of the Twilight Zone,
and I was under the impression that Scripture had rather more life to it than a dead book," Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

If OTOH that book - set of books, rather - is rightly called the Word of God, then what forbids Catholics to call her by titles which properly & fully describe her Son ? If the Bible is anything, it is through the Life-giving Spirit. And the same is true of Mary.

Don't really follow you.

If 1800 years of Christians have done wrong to honour Mary

Mary is not the focus of our faith.

- is it credible that the Church of Christ could be so utterly mistaken ? To except people to believe such a thing, is asking far too much. That is as credible as the rubbish about her Son being an alien or a hundred other kinds of nonsense.

What is credible is that part of the Body of Messiah has adopted practices over the years that are unbiblical, and have promoted a doctrine about Mary that is almost entirely man-made, so that the Mary they claim to honour bears no relation to the L-rds mother.

When we offer the Eucharistic Sacrifice to her, you will be right to complain that we adore her - but not before.

Well thanks for the permission.....I think it is possible that the current demands by many to have Mary recognised as Co-Redemptrix should already set off the alarm bells.

It has nothing to do with the Mary of Scripture, so I have no compunction in condemning this religious disfigurement and unholy caricature of the mother of Jesus...it merely brings shame upon the Body and also demonstrates the reality of Isaiah 5:20 which says:-

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

I believe anyone who reads the words of this hymn...which is symptomatic of myriad other such hymns...should be deeply troubled by the content.
## Not in the slightest. There are others like it, which praise the mother of God on very simlar terms, and that is as it should be. She is worthy of praise and honour and love and devotion, entirely worthy. To se her as the Church sees her is something that for many takes time. And some have eyes to see, while others do not.

Why is it not obvious that the language is at times metaphorical, & necessarily so ? She is more, not less, than any mortal tongue can say. Calling her "Brighter than the sun's rays" is not an expression of an astronomical measurement; it does not mean that she is of the same temperature as Aldebaran or Antares. It is the fault of Fundamentalism, if it cannot distinguish between a hymn to the Virgin & statements of scientific fact. If Fundamentalists can't see the difference between honouring, loving, venerating, admiring & praising the Mother of God OTOH, and the God Whose Wisdom created her for Himself that she might be the Mother of the Son of God, Who is her Creator, Lord, Redeemer, Saviour & God OTOH, then the's no point in trying to show that the Mother of God, & her Divine Son, though very alike, are incommensurable. For Who is unable to see that God is not a creature, & that therefore the holiest of creatures, Mary the Mother of God, cannot possibly be mistaken for her God ? If she is not God, how ius it possible to honour her as though she were ?

To God Almighty the Liturgy is offered; never to the Mother of God. Such a thing is out of the question, because the Church knows very well that sacrifice, an act of adoration, can be offered to God alone. We do not adore the Mother of God. Is the respect shown to those in authority sinful ? By normal Fundamentalist logic it must be - if it not wrong to show honour to those who may be great sinners, but are reckoned honourable because of the offices they hold, how can it be wrong to show honour to Jesus Christ by show respect, love and veneration for those through whom He has glorified Himself ?

You can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

You have got to be sticking your head in the sand to believe the words you have written HT....you merely believe what you have been taught...if you believed Scripture you would truly honour Mary accordingly....but you choose to honour a man-made doctrinal effigy in word and deed, through hymns, prayers and supplications.

Also you seem unaware of the extent to which past Popes and other leaders, teachers and writers have amply demonstrated their utter devotion to Mary....time to wake up and smell the coffee I reckon.

All the best. Zazal

 

[laconicstudent]

You can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

Oh goody, we've gone from normal discussion to "YOU CAN'T TRICK ME! DECEIVER!"

You have got to be sticking your head in the sand to believe the words you have written HT....you merely believe what you have been taught...if you believed Scripture you would truly honour Mary accordingly....but you choose to honour a man-made doctrinal effigy in word and deed, through hymns, prayers and supplications.

Yeah, there's no way anyone could believe anything different from you based on the same Scriptures you have. They must have been brainwashed and indoctrinated. If you were a True Christian(TM) who Truly Believes Scripture(C), Hairy Tic would believe exactly as you do. /sarcasm

 

[Zeek]

Oh goody, we've gone from normal discussion to "YOU CAN'T TRICK ME! DECEIVER!"

Yeah, there's no way anyone could believe anything different from you based on the same Scriptures you have. They must have been brainwashed and indoctrinated. If you were a True Christian(TM) who Truly Believes Scripture(C), Hairy Tic would believe exactly as you do. /sarcasm

I wonder if you ever stop to think how deception works....and if you think that those being deceived are able to be objective...whats your experience, how involved have you been in helping those who have literally been indoctrinated and brainwashed? My guess is not a great deal.

One of the signs that I have recognised over many years is that when people stick rigidly to a belief system that has no Scriptural basis, and actually flies in the face of sound doctrine, they don't really have an argument...all they can do is appeal to peripherals that do not carry the same weight as Scripture, and try to justify their position by any means they can think up including obscure or unclear Bible verses, or by rooting through the home-spun doctrines that have evolved internally to attempt to support an untenable position.

I can cite examples, such as 'Don't you realise our Church has been around much longer than yours', or how about, 'We are the majority and we can't be wrong', or even 'but the Church Fathers believed....'.
But I think by far the most popular and to my mind the most telling is when those that are strongly against false doctrines concerning Mary and the Saints are accused of being 'Sola Scriptura', as if taking Scripture at its word is some despicable weakness.

Your sarcasm is duly noted friend....I can't help feeling like the little boy in the crowd laughing and pointing out the Emperor is naked....who knows, maybe a few others in the crowd will start to chuckle too.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I can tell you what deception is - seeing something from the outside and assuming to know and understand it and teaching others the distorted perception of what one believes to be true, though it simply isnt. Which happens so often at the pulpit of most Protestant churches - they havent a clue behind the real ideas of honor and veneration.

With that said, it is not for someone on the outside to make claims against something they simply dont have the capacity to comprehend.
If you cannot understand Tradition, so be it.
If you cannot understand the honor due to our Lady, so be it.
If you cannot conceive the utmost love [which is what highly favored means btw] God has for a particular creature, then so be it.

But do not tell the ancient Churches they are worshiping our Lady - the Mother of our Lord - of which Whom we love above all [that is to say, Christ] and that He loves His Mother above all, in that is she is highly favored - that we cannot imitate Him in that respect.

And if you happenstance to run across the book of Wisdom, which is highly prophetic to the Lords life and death and should not have been removed by protesters, then to know it refers to both the Church and our Lady simultaneously, you might, and i say might finally grasp just how much the LORD wants His Mother honored.

But then - that would be taking advice from someone who follows the ancient Traditions.

Take it fwiw.

Read wisdom, and understand Tradition says this is in regard to the Church [now so denigrated] and our Lord's Mother, now considered so common instead of being called Blessed - except by His ancient Churches.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Actually, God does. God didn't ask Adam if He wanted to take care of the garden. God didn't ask Abraham if He wanted to go to Canaan. God didn't ask Moses, "Do you want to go to the Pharaoh my son?", but He commanded it, and it was done. God didn't ask the Levites if they wanted to be priests. God didn't ask David if he wanted to be King. He commanded and Samuel obeyed and made him King of Israel. God didn't ask Jeremiah if he wanted to be his prophet or not. In the same manner God didn't ask Mary whether she wanted to bring forth Jesus, but He said "you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son and you shall call His name Jesus". God doesn't need Mary's consent.

God could have chosen another one.

How did she 'keep' His word? What did she do to help His [physical] 'creation'? She only agreed. She said "so be it". God is the one that made her pregnant. It's not like saying, "Abraham obeyed God and went where He told him to". Mary didn't have to do anything. God did it. So just agreeing isn't making His birth possible.

Wait ... what? She was made from the beginning? From the beginning of what? Creation? Please don't say creation. That's one of the few things left for a total disaster. Yes, God planned for her to do this from the beginning, but she wasn't made from the beginning.

No. One's decision do not ruin all the plans of God. What? Was she the only woman in Israel? One of the reasons we call her graceful is because among many women God chose her. She is 'highly favored' because from many women from many times God chose her. Yes, God chose her for a reason. But don't go as far as saying that only she could do it. This is simply not true.

The prophecies cannot be broken. If they can, God is a liar, for the prophecies come from God. Mary's will cannot make God a liar.

Had she refused God would have chosen another woman. Some people seem to think that Mary is the only woman that could ever do that job. She isn't. But she is 'called blessed' because from many possible choices, God chose her. God chose to be graceful to her.

Mary cannot make God a liar. He said that the Messiah would come. Mary's will cannot change that. Had she refused (1) God would have chosen another or (2) she would have still done His will, like with Balaam. Maybe He wouldn't have spoken to her in the first place knowing her response beforehand.

I can think of another one: Abraham. He trusted God fully, that He would truly give him a descendant and that He would make a great nation our of him, that he would be a blessing, and that one day his descendants will inherit the Promised Land.

These are all too common mistakes from modern theologies.

 

[Zeek]

You all just do not get it... all praise of Mary...is because of her doing GOD'S will, but all praise is actually because of the glory of God.

When we praise Mary - NOT worship her mind you - but praise her as our Queen, it is only due because of the Lord...because of HIS Handwork in her.
IT is His power and might that wrought us the Virgin who would remain faithful to Him.

And in proper understanding, when she is praised, it is only because of the work God did unto her. And we honor her because she was cooperative to His will and did it perfectly.

Hi WA....would have responded earlier....but time constraints etc, I'm sure you understand.

I'm sure I understand a lot better since coming here, that despite all the denials, what people are doing in their hymns, prayers, requests and supplications to Mary and various Saints is nothing less than Praise and Worship....which duly belongs to G-d alone....I'm in the fortunate position of not wearing rose-tinted specs issued to members of the club you are in.

SOmeone said - she didnt know Who He was...not really.

I find that amazing to believe because - an angel told her Who He would be, and she conceived by God, and she is filled and was filled prior to Gabriel with Graces and highly favored.. which should mean if by God highly favored, then highest favored for a human.
I think Mary was anything BUT obtuse.

As a Jewish woman, she knew the scriptures being filled with grace - she knew what it entailed. She took it on... to serve the Lord at a higher position that any other man woman or child on earth.

I think she came to a growing awareness of just who Jesus was...and like Peter it would have been revealed to her through the unction of the Holy Ghost.

The mother of the King is the Queen.

She did not create G-d...the L-rd was there from all eternity, it is futile to try and use this idea as a means of elevating her to the position of Queen of Heaven....its just ridiculous.

Who set up the kingdoms on earth in the Judaic tribes? God did.
As an allegory to Heaven.

WE say ALL GLORY AND PRAISE TO OUR LORD.
We mean that - and part of HIS GLORY AND PRAISE is the praise of His Creature...Mary His Mother.

For this HE is pleased. For her, He gives high favor....ie - she is HIS favorite.

I am sure the L-rd had a special relationship with the woman who bore Him, nursed Him, fed and clothed Him and protected Him...but Jesus Himself never treated her as special in any sort of exalted fashion that we see happening today.

 

[Zeek]

To put it in proper perspective, if your child does a wonderful job at something...you praise them.

You tell them how wonderful they did that job.. and make an extra effort to make sure they know.

With gratitude we give honor to our Lady because of her extra effort to do well - gave us our Savior, thru her efforts according to God.

I cannot stress enough the scriptures...

Luke 11:27
And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck.
[28] But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.

Matthew 12:50
[47] And one said unto him: Behold thy mother and thy brethren stand without, seeking thee. [48] But he answering him that told him, said: Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? [49] And stretching forth his hand towards his disciples, he said: Behold my mother and my brethren.
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.


This often misunderstood, misquoted and twisted scriptures MUST be conceptually understood....

1) Mary was not blessed because she was a physical character to His birth - no He said rather - because she did the will of His Father. [And she kept His word]
She could not have been His Mother without her consent, God doesnt work that way.
2) To be blessed is to be highly honored...
3) All generations shall call her Blessed. [And so all in the Church have done so without a skip]

Praise or honor always differs from the Lord / and that of His creatures.
Praise itself has many levels... but none have praise over or above God.
A creature can be praised through what God has done for them.... And we can praise God for what He has done for His creature.

TOO many people legalistically sterilize the scriptures and thinking it is impossible to honor His creatures.

I think if Mary has been somewhat over-looked in her role by some sections of the Church, it probably is more as a reaction to the ghastly way in which she has been ripped from the context of Scripture, placed on a pedestal and been granted god-like status through the doctrines of mis-guided teachers...If the Church at been functioning better at the time, then these ridiculous teachings would never have got off the ground.

 

[WarriorAngel]

IF God had to choose another woman, then everything would have been out of sync.
Jesus came at the appointed time. Unless you believe God threw everything together at the last moment.
Notwithstanding the Kings of the Orient watched the stars and knew when the appointed time would be.

Gabriel called Mary Keritocheme [sp]
Which means someone who was 'saved' in the past by a future event.

IE - her grace was from pre-Baptism prior to Christ and it was yielded to her from the beginning - just as Elijah and Moses had their glorified bodies prior to His Life, Passion, Death and Resurrection.

WE know He is called the first fruits of Heaven, but lo and behold Henoch, Elijah and Moses all received glorified bodies before Him??

Henoch was the first fruit, really?
No, but you all put God in our time and not outside of time, and put too many restrictions on Him and say what can be and cannot be.

Not likely you have read the ancient early fathers explaining Mary is the New Eve.

Mary, and no other was set up for this role.
Everything depended on the absolute trust of her.

Something people have to little of with regards to understanding the joy and love He has in her and her obedience.

 

[Zeek]

Look at it this way - without her a humble human, God could not have come to do as He said.
She kept His word... she helped make HIM possible.

She was already granted the graces from God - per the Greeting of the Angel.
She was already made for this - she was made from the beginning.
It was not happenstance.

BUT - it came down to her accepting it - as opposed to Eve who went against the Will of God, Mary on the other hand, did the Will of God perfectly.

It would seem, from the many years of being on here, that some would like to denigrate her to a mere physical human God just decided one day to pick someone.
Yet the time was right, and He set her up and His engagement to become Flesh at an ordained time.

Had she not done His will, had she not 'kept His word' which was His promise... then the prophesies would have been moot point.

He so trusted in her - and the grace He gave her [much as He gave to Eve] but with her free will, He was able to KEEP HIS WORD perfectly at the ordained time.

All of this stood on one thing - HER cooperation - in keeping His word [His Promises through all the ages] HAD she refused... is not bearing to think of.
It's unimaginable.

BUT He trusted in her, the one to whom He would bestow greatest graces upon - and in order for her to be perfectly accepting of the Will and cooperate her graces were unlike any other.

To undo what Eve had done, she had to be a model likened to Eve, yet because she was surrounded by evil and although did not partake of it, she understood in those graces the need for the Savior.

It was the granted graces of HIGHEST proportions of grace - that helped her understand the need for why and how we all needed a Savior, as opposed to Eve who had not yet known good and evil in comparison.

Although she was kept from being evil, or doing evil for the sake of COOPERATING with God and keeping His promises... and being the perfect flesh of His flesh...
She too would have done evil had she refused.

Do not take her role as though it's another day, or another thing...
Everything - our salvation and God's Promises hinged on her acceptance to do His will.

Lest you take it all for granted...it should not be dismissed as it is.

Some dont get it...some really dont get it.


ADDING: He did not need to bend her will either - like so many prophets who didnt want the task.
She gave perfectly at the first moment.

AGAIN, Doing as she did - our salvation hinged on God keeping His word... and to so He needed her. We needed her...
God is God, His will is perfect.
Humans have free will, and had she not been bestowed the highest forms of grace and perfection, which God ordained so she would cooperate for her sake as well as ours, we may not be here now.

ONE - yes one human didnt refuse nor need to negotiate with God.. one human trusted fully. AND believe it or not, we all know God is faithful to Himself, but her,,,,a human off the branch of Eve who disobeyed and could have the choice to disobey... did not.

How does one keep the Word of God - by doing what He ordained and prophesied from the beginning.
Thats' complete and absolute trust that His creature would be unlike Adam and Eve and all their descendants...

You don't seem to realise than one can honour Mary as a faithful woman, who was granted a unique and amazing position in giving birth to our Saviour...who in many ways was a real example of the grace of G-d at work in a person.....without going into Lah-Lah Land and getting all religious, attributing fanciful powers to her, and creating pure myth based on hearsay and idle speculation...then casting images in plastic and plaster all syrupy sweet and very very sickly. That is not the Mary of the Bible...It hurts the Body.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I wonder if you ever stop to think how deception works....and if you think that those being deceived are able to be objective...whats your experience, how involved have you been in helping those who have literally been indoctrinated and brainwashed? My guess is not a great deal.

One of the signs that I have recognised over many years is that when people stick rigidly to a belief system that has no Scriptural basis, and actually flies in the face of sound doctrine, they don't really have an argument...all they can do is appeal to peripherals that do not carry the same weight as Scripture, and try to justify their position by any means they can think up including obscure or unclear Bible verses, or by rooting through the home-spun doctrines that have evolved internally to attempt to support an untenable position.

I can cite examples, such as 'Don't you realise our Church has been around much longer than yours', or how about, 'We are the majority and we can't be wrong', or even 'but the Church Fathers believed....'.
But I think by far the most popular and to my mind the most telling is when those that are strongly against false doctrines concerning Mary and the Saints are accused of being 'Sola Scriptura', as if taking Scripture at its word is some despicable weakness.

Your sarcasm is duly noted friend....I can't help feeling like the little boy in the crowd laughing and pointing out the Emperor is naked....who knows, maybe a few others in the crowd will start to chuckle too.

I am one of those "few others in the crowd". I think your summary is quite excellent. The responses you listed have been those I have observed myself both in real life and here at CF.

Thank you for your excellent posts.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hi WA....would have responded earlier....but time constraints etc, I'm sure you understand.

I'm sure I understand a lot better since coming here, that despite all the denials, what people are doing in their hymns, prayers, requests and supplications to Mary and various Saints is nothing less than Praise and Worship....which duly belongs to G-d alone....I'm in the fortunate position of not wearing rose-tinted specs issued to members of the club you are in.

Except Mary, no one else was given [or not too many anyway] the charism to read hearts outside of God.

SO unless you are reading my heart - you cannot state i worship her.
IF i say i do not, then thats the final word on it.

Grace alone could help you see what these things mean... though with a hard position against it, its unlikely.

I think she came to a growing awareness of just who Jesus was...and like Peter it would have been revealed to her through the unction of the Holy Ghost.

The power of God overshadowed her, the Angel told her He would over shadow her, and you still believe although she who had all graces and was highly favored, somehow obtuse to Who He was?

I am not buying it.

She did not create G-d...the L-rd was there from all eternity, it is futile to try and use this idea as a means of elevating her to the position of Queen of Heaven....its just ridiculous.





I am sure the L-rd had a special relationship with the woman who bore Him, nursed Him, fed and clothed Him and protected Him...but Jesus Himself never treated her as special in any sort of exalted fashion that we see happening today.

You are speaking verbatum to what Jesus rebuked.
The woman who said blessed are the paps that nursed you and the womb that gave birth...
He said specifically, it is because she did the will of His Father perfectly that she was Blessed. Because she chose to be obedient unlike Eve who enjoyed the prerogative of knowing God with all graces and yet disobeyed.

You just dont understand that.

You just dont understand your own salvation 'in part' hinged on the creature God made for this reason and her own submission to do His will.

 

[laconicstudent]

You don't seem to realise than one can honour Mary as a faithful woman, who was granted a unique and amazing position in giving birth to our Saviour...who in many ways was a real example of the grace of G-d at work in a person.....without going into Lah-Lah Land and getting all religious, attributing fanciful powers to her, and creating pure myth based on hearsay and idle speculation...then casting images in plastic and plaster all syrupy sweet and very very sickly. That is not the Mary of the Bible...It hurts the Body.

Nothing personal, but if this is the level of charity you and this "Body" express towards what we are told are supposedly brethren in this "Body", I'd rather not be associated it. It appears to be a place for mud-slinging and then pretending to unity.