The Assumption of Mary

[WarriorAngel]

Let's back step a bit here to the Apostles...
They knew Jesus for three years, and although only Simon was given the confession by the Father to stand before the others and say He was the Christ - through out the times of His prophesy of His death and resurrection - they didnt comprehend Him.

Not until they received the Holy Spirit did they know all things and could teach all things.

The Holy Spirit is the giver of all graces - of which Mary had already received graces of the Lord, which means Mary knew full well Who Jesus was.

Highly favored, FULL of Grace...these are what the scriptures say in your tongue.

And you insist she was obtuse?

 

[Zeek]

I can tell you what deception is - seeing something from the outside and assuming to know and understand it and teaching others the distorted perception of what one believes to be true, though it simply isnt. Which happens so often at the pulpit of most Protestant churches - they havent a clue behind the real ideas of honor and veneration.

Easy to say....very hard to prove. I think it has been amply demonstrated on these boards that honour and veneration are simply religious code-words for praise and worship.

With that said, it is not for someone on the outside to make claims against something they simply dont have the capacity to comprehend.
If you cannot understand Tradition, so be it.
If you cannot understand the honor due to our Lady, so be it.
If you cannot conceive the utmost love [which is what highly favored means btw] God has for a particular creature, then so be it.

Venerating Mary the way some ancient traditional Churches do...does the opposite of honouring her...and is actually very distasteful...even shocking at times. I don't think many people from different traditions realise the extent to which she is focused upon, and the true depth of devotion that some have towards her....it is rather sad.

But do not tell the ancient Churches they are worshiping our Lady - the Mother of our Lord - of which Whom we love above all [that is to say, Christ] and that He loves His Mother above all, in that is she is highly favored - that we cannot imitate Him in that respect.

We are One Body...we need each other. Because we are one Body, I feel I am amongst brethren, and can point out things that I believe do us no favours, and should not be practiced.

And if you happenstance to run across the book of Wisdom, which is highly prophetic to the Lords life and death and should not have been removed by protesters, then to know it refers to both the Church and our Lady simultaneously, you might, and i say might finally grasp just how much the LORD wants His Mother honored.

But then - that would be taking advice from someone who follows the ancient Traditions.

I am sure that although I am focusing on several points that I believe are wrong within the Orthodox and Catholic tradition, there are also many things that I can learn from my more traditional brethren...I don't see it as an 'us and them' set up....we are all in this together.

Take it fwiw.

Read wisdom, and understand Tradition says this is in regard to the Church [now so denigrated] and our Lord's Mother, now considered so common instead of being called Blessed - except by His ancient Churches.

Wrong...many of us that don't have the wealth of tradition you draw from...love Mary and honour her according to Scripture.

In Messiah. Zazal

 

[Zeek]

Except Mary, no one else was given [or not too many anyway] the charism to read hearts outside of God.

SO unless you are reading my heart - you cannot state i worship her.
IF i say i do not, then thats the final word on it.

That's fine, I'm only going on what I have read and heard from the lips of my brethren here on this Forum....

Grace alone could help you see what these things mean... though with a hard position against it, its unlikely.

The power of God overshadowed her, the Angel told her He would over shadow her, and you still believe although she who had all graces and was highly favored, somehow obtuse to Who He was?

I am not buying it.

I think when reading Scripture there is a sense that Mary realised that her Son was a gift from G-d the Father....but did not fully realise that He was the Messiah and G-d the Son until later....the wordings about the way she treasured things in her heart indicate this to some degree...at least to me....but then I don't believe she was a perpetual sinless virgin Queen.

You are speaking verbatum to what Jesus rebuked.
The woman who said blessed are the paps that nursed you and the womb that gave birth...
He said specifically, it is because she did the will of His Father perfectly that she was Blessed. Because she chose to be obedient unlike Eve who enjoyed the prerogative of knowing God with all graces and yet disobeyed.

You just dont understand that.

Your statement is incorrect, and your quote is also wrong....this is what He actually said:-

Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed.” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.”

You just dont understand your own salvation 'in part' hinged on the creature God made for this reason and her own submission to do His will.

Actually one of the positive things that has happened since being here is that I have got a better appreciation of Marys role in History....and I am more aware that she played a pivotal role in the life of her Son...and that she is indeed blessed amongst women.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I think if Mary has been somewhat over-looked in her role by some sections of the Church, it probably is more as a reaction to the ghastly way in which she has been ripped from the context of Scripture, placed on a pedestal and been granted god-like status through the doctrines of mis-guided teachers...If the Church at been functioning better at the time, then these ridiculous teachings would never have got off the ground.

Everything believed about Mary is scriptural.

Have you ever slowly read what she herself said when she spoke to Elizabeth?

Lets walk through it.

Luke 1

[41] And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [42] And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. [43] And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [44] For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. [45] And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.


BEG pardon, Mary is Blessed because she believed - and the Lord shall come, because of Mary.


Blessed again, means she did His will.
Again, Blessed - which is to say, venerable.
Pause a moment...Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit [grace to know] and she says MOTHER OF MY LORD.
Calling Mary the Mother of God.


Yet you deny this is true?







[46] And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.


How does a soul magnify the Lord?
The ecf's know her soul was worthy unlike others, to magnify Him that is God.
Magnify is to make bigger, in this case, to bring Him to us.
Not her, but her soul. These are not common words from a common nobody.
No one else can say they magnify the Lord...







[47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.





Here Mary understands perfectly well what the greeting of the Angel meant, for her spirit had rejoiced, ie - she was already ordained in this and was 'pre-saved' as per the greeting [not understood in English]
Her spirit is what God prepared for His Son....for she was already ordained to be His Mother.











[48] Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.




AGAIN - all generations [of His people] shall call her Blessed.
Which again is to say, she shall be venerated.
Who is venerated?
Queens are, certainly, and kings...who are human. How little can be regarded for the scriptures then if she is less venerable than human kings and queens who did nothing for in any part towards our salvation.





[49] Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me;


What great things, if she is not venerable? Not our Queen?

Great things?
Yet she knew OT scriptures, she knew by grace what it all meant.
Not in this life perhaps was she to be great for all her life she is considered most humble.
Then what is great f she is nothing more than a physical being who gave birth?


WHAT GREAT things did He do for her? If what you say is true?







and holy is his name. [50] And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.





[48] "Shall call me blessed"... These words are a prediction of that honour which the church in all ages should pay to the Blessed Virgin. Let Protestants examine whether they are any way concerned in this prophecy.







[51] He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. [52] He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.


Ahhhh, now you have a problem ...
He exalts the humble....
And Mary is referring to herself as the humble.


What is exalt ??


Can we discuss what exalt is?


raised or elevated, as in rank or character; of high station: an exalted personage. 2. noble or elevated; lofty:. .

And what can you say about exalted now?






[53] He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. [54] He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: [55] As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.



She is the proper line of David.







Please understand we imitate scriptures and what God has ordained.

She is Blessed, which is venerable, and even more evident she is EXALTED.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You evidently have a difficult time with God's own exaltation of her....
SO we are not the ones wrong...but anyone who refuses to exalt her as she said God has done for her.
These are the great things He has done for her.

And Protestants.... let's hear the crickets chirp in their exaltation of her.

They deny completely the great things God has done for her.

I side with God in this, He exalted her, I follow His lead.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

You don't seem to realise than one can honour Mary as a faithful woman, who was granted a unique and amazing position in giving birth to our Saviour...who in many ways was a real example of the grace of G-d at work in a person.....without going into Lah-Lah Land and getting all religious, attributing fanciful powers to her, and creating pure myth based on hearsay and idle speculation...then casting images in plastic and plaster all syrupy sweet and very very sickly. That is not the Mary of the Bible...It hurts the Body.
​

Nothing personal, but if this is the level of charity you and this "Body" express towards what we are told are supposedly brethren in this "Body", I'd rather not be associated it. It appears to be a place for mud-slinging and then pretending to unity.

That's ok LS...I can't really pretend...sometimes we have to be open and frank with one another and it can be a bit painful....but I remember a Scripture that said 'faithful are the wounds of a friend'. I love Mary, but not the pale imitation.

The unity is there whether you see it or not, and is not based on either of us, but on the work of Messiah through whom we are united into the Body.....you can't stop me being your brother in Messiah....your lumbered with me I'm afraid....and I with you.

 

[WarriorAngel]

If you are a brother in the Lord [as we are called adopted], then guess who is your mother?


Hint: God has done great things for her, she is blessed and she is exalted.

 

[Studious One]

Mary is not our Mother. My Mother's name is Anna, not Mary.

According to the Word of God, not one Apostle called Mary Mother.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Then you werent adopted by Christ ?
To be His brother, one would think they would willing share His mother, the woman who helped in our salvation via her role.

The one whom God exalts and honors [yes scriptures tells us Jesus honored her when He obeyed her] and desires mankind to honor for so it says He does great things for her.

Unless that part of scriptures is false.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Its simple - Eve was named Eve as the mother of all humanity.
Mary is Mother of all in Christ - the Mother in our spirituality.

It's beautiful when one understands the complete fulfillment - that is the mirror opposite of the OT is the NT going from flesh to spirit ...
Everything in the OT is fulfilled in the NT via the ways of the Lord Who worked things to be placed peg into peg ...
Making all the human flesh factions into spiritual factions.

Some day we should make a thread on that.

 

[Studious One]

Then you werent adopted by Christ ?
To be His brother, one would think they would willing share His mother, the woman who helped in our salvation via her role.

The one whom God exalts and honors [yes scriptures tells us Jesus honored her when He obeyed her] and desires mankind to honor for so it says He does great things for her.

Unless that part of scriptures is false.

I was adopted by Christ. I did not have to go through Mary to receive my adoption. I only had to place my faith in Christ.

And He nowhere told me to look to, pray to, venerate, worship, adore, or exalt Mary.

The Word of God tells us to Look to Jesus the author and finisher of our Faith, not Mary. It tells us that God has given Him a name above all names. I don't go through Mary. Her name is irrelevant when it comes to my standing in God.

Jesus Christ existed thousands of years before Mary was born into this world. Since He existed as King of kings before Mary existed, she is not Queen of Heaven, for she is not the Mother of that which was before her.

Mary is not my Queen. She has no authority over me, nor do I have to answer to her.

Scripture nowhere says Jesus exalted Mary... nowhere! Mary is only exalted in the vain hearts of man.

 

[Forrest GOP]

It seems to me that the evidence of the assumption of Mary is questionable, at best. Why believe this?

Funny. That is the same argument that atheists use against God. Why use a losing argument?

 

[Forrest GOP]

I was adopted by Christ. I did not have to go through Mary to receive my adoption. I only had to place my faith in Christ......

But you learned about him from man: Men wrote the Bible, men printed the Bible so you could have one, and your parents were propbably the first ones to tell you about Jesus.

 

[Zeek]

Jesus Christ existed thousands of years before Mary was born into this world. Since He existed as King of kings before Mary existed, she is not Queen of Heaven, for she is not the Mother of that which was before her.

Amen bro.

I think this is precisely in line with Scripture and flies in the face of the teaching of men, that tries to conform Mary to their image.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being....
........................................

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Mary did not create G-d, she gave birth to the Saviour...to say that she created Him one would have to call her the Mother of G-d, and for that to be true, He could not pre-exist. Scripture is very careful in the terminology used....it is us that either go too far or not far enough, and have to be taught afresh.

But all of this is foundational and demonstrates the root of unbiblical teaching that needs to be cut off to free brethren to walk in the truth of the Gospel and not keep propping up man-made doctrines that have more holes than a colander and detract from the L-rd.

 

[WarriorAngel]

So being Eternal...He only existed thousands of years b4 Mary??

Eiy

 

[WarriorAngel]

Eternal means no beginning.

And i hate to tell you, but scriptures thru Elizabeth, tell us Mary is the Mother of the Lord.

Figure it out.

 

[Thekla]

Hi Thekla, I have read your post, and will continue to consider some of the things you responded to, and because of your fast, will just mention a couple of things.

One of your arguments is that to really understand things I have to get into the shoes of an Orthodox Believer, otherwise I will just get a tourist type glimpse of what really goes on. Also that by focusing on a few points outside their main context, I lose the thrust and the importance of the rest of a persons spititual life.

I am aware of these things, and someone like me is always going to be at a disadvantage because I do not belong to the Othodox or Catholic tradition, and am not considered 'close family'...therefore anything I say is going to have a certain weight of prejudice against it.

I truly understand that you and others here are my brethren, that you love the L-rd, and seek to live a righteous life, and that when I attack certain things within your belief system, I do not endear myself to you, or help in the formation of a relationship from which we can discuss things in a more objective manner.

I do not think I have any intential bias though...I come merely as a Believer amongst other Believers, and even in my ongoing discovery of some of the unbiblical practices of my fellow Believers, I have learnt things, been humbled at times, and appreciate everyones willingness to engage, even when they strongly disagree or come to the defence of what I consider the indefensible...in fact I would go so far as to say, that even in the heat of these discussions and arguments I have been aware of a certain level of restraint and accomodation that I have not seen with some of my other brethren from a more evangelical tradition.

I agree whole-heartedly with your prayer, and I have never once been offended by anything you have said. So because of your fast I will not address further the things you have written, and will sit on my typing hands ...so to speak.

May G-d bless and encourage you through this period, may His word be a lamp to your feet and a light to your path.

In our Messiah. Zazal

Thank-you, Zazal, for your kindness.
Yes, it seems you've caught my point.
There seems to be a 'disconnect' at the very least in how Christianity is seen and experienced. In the EO, it is understood we are saved as the body of Christ, not as individuals. The salvation of all is the concern and prayer of each - thus, our request to the Theotokos is for her prayers for our salvation (and this is how she "saves us"; as one of the body she prays, like all of the body prays, for the salvation of others. See my signature for an example of this, from the Liturgy). We all are called to "save others" - to, in the love that is demonstrated as Christ's, in Christ, strive to fulfill our particular "role" for the benefit of all (Paul, the 2 greatest commandments).
I do wish you might consider, as a demonstration that a 'tourist' cannot completely understand the country he visits, refraining from continuing to use descriptives which accuse of worship of Mary.
As the translation you have provided is stilted, I give a link to another. I do hope you will consider not jumping to conclusions -- I have provided the Scriptural and theological descriptions for the lines in a previous post.
Agni Parthene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"He will come down as dew upon a fleece". And He has.
glory to God +
I do wish, understanding that

 

[Zeek]

Everything believed about Mary is scriptural.

Have you ever slowly read what she herself said when she spoke to Elizabeth?

I have read it many many times, prayerfully and with due consideration.

Lets walk through it.

Ok.

Luke 1

[41] And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: [42] And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. [43] And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? [44] For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. [45] And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.


BEG pardon, Mary is Blessed because she believed - and the Lord shall come, because of Mary.


Blessed again, means she did His will.
Again, Blessed - which is to say, venerable.
Pause a moment...Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit [grace to know] and she says MOTHER OF MY LORD.
Calling Mary the Mother of God.


Yet you deny this is true?

What I deny my friend is that she is called Mary the Mother of G-d....that is something you have added because of the doctrine you have been taught....anyway you can easily prove me wrong by quoting any Scripture that says Mary is the Mother of G-d.

[46] And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.


How does a soul magnify the Lord?
The ecf's know her soul was worthy unlike others, to magnify Him that is God.
Magnify is to make bigger, in this case, to bring Him to us.
Not her, but her soul. These are not common words from a common nobody.
No one else can say they magnify the Lord...

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

Psalm 34:1 I will bless the LORD at all times;
His praise shall continually be in my mouth.

2 My soul will make its boast in the LORD;
The humble will hear it and rejoice. 3 O magnify the LORD with me,
And let us exalt His name together.

Psalm 69:30 I will praise the name of God with song
And magnify Him with thanksgiving.


http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=1&l=47#x

[47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Here Mary understands perfectly well what the greeting of the Angel meant, for her spirit had rejoiced, ie - she was already ordained in this and was 'pre-saved' as per the greeting [not understood in English]
Her spirit is what God prepared for His Son....for she was already ordained to be His Mother.

Mary was foreknown in the mind and plans of G-d....but she was neither sinless nor pre-saved.










http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=1&l=48#x

[48] Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

AGAIN - all generations [of His people] shall call her Blessed.
Which again is to say, she shall be venerated.
Who is venerated?
Queens are, certainly, and kings...who are human. How little can be regarded for the scriptures then if she is less venerable than human kings and queens who did nothing for in any part towards our salvation.

See Judges 5:24 "Most blessed of women is Jael, The wife of Heber the Kenite; Most blessed is she of women in the tent.

Try reading what has become known as the Beatitudes.

Matthew 5:1 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him. 2 He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. ..................




http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=1&l=49#x

[49] Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me;


What great things, if she is not venerable? Not our Queen?

Great things?
Yet she knew OT scriptures, she knew by grace what it all meant.
Not in this life perhaps was she to be great for all her life she is considered most humble.
Then what is great f she is nothing more than a physical being who gave birth?


WHAT GREAT things did He do for her? If what you say is true?

I don't think any other person that has ever lived could have been given the gift and the responsibility that Mary had....to carry the Saviour in her womb, to give birth to Him, and to have charge over Him in His most vulnerable and formative years....That is truly amazing, that is why every generation should recognize what a blessed woman she was.
She is not some fictional Queen,we don't need to place on her man-made titles to demonstrate her position...Scripture doesn't, the Apostles don't and neither should we.

and holy is his name.[50] And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

[48] "Shall call me blessed"... These words are a prediction of that honour which the church in all ages should pay to the Blessed Virgin. Let Protestants examine whether they are any way concerned in this prophecy.

All Believers should honour the role that Mary played....but there are real dangers in going beyond the truth and making dishonest claims out of bad and deceptive theology.

http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=1&l=51#x

[51] He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. [52] He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble.

Ahhhh, now you have a problem ...
He exalts the humble....
And Mary is referring to herself as the humble.


What is exalt ??

Can we discuss what exalt is?

I'm all ears....carry on

raised or elevated, as in rank or character; of high station: an exalted personage. 2. noble or elevated; lofty:. .

And what can you say about exalted now?

What I can say, is what the L-rd taught here:-

Luke 14:7 And He began speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table, saying to them, 8 “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him, 9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this man,’ and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place. 10 “But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher’; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you. 11 “For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”





http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=1&l=53#x

[53] He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. [54] He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: [55] As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever.



She is the proper line of David.

Yes both she and Joseph were of Royal lineage, in keeping with G-ds promises:-

Acts 13: 21 “Then they asked for a king, and God gave them Saul the son of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, for forty years. 22 “After He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I HAVE FOUND DAVID the son of Jesse, A MAN AFTER MY HEART, who will do all My will.’ 23 “From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus

Please understand we imitate scriptures and what God has ordained.

She is Blessed, which is venerable, and even more evident she is EXALTED.

That is not strictly true....if you were obedient to Scripture you would come under the authority of Scripture, and be persuaded by truth...but you give more honour to the teachings of men and the doctrine of your local Church.

Matt 10: 37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

 

[Zeek]

I do wish you might consider, as a demonstration that a 'tourist' cannot completely understand the country he visits, refraining from continuing to use descriptives which accuse of worship of Mary.
As the translation you have provided is stilted, I give a link to another. I do hope you will consider not jumping to conclusions -- I have provided the Scriptural and theological descriptions for the lines in a previous post.
Agni Parthene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"He will come down as dew upon a fleece". And He has.
glory to God +
I do wish, understanding that

Thanks Thekla....have run out of time but will look later.

I honestly consider everything people write here....but when you look at what worship entails, I am left to draw no other conclusion but those I have already expressed. I'm not trying to be nasty or confrontational....just to get people to look more closely at what is actually going on, and to be more honest and take off the blinkers that this poor tourist seems to see a lot clearer than the locals at times.

Kindly. Zazal

 

[Thekla]

Thanks Thekla....have run out of time but will look later.

I honestly consider everything people write here....but when you look at what worship entails, I am left to draw no other conclusion but those I have already expressed. I'm not trying to be nasty or confrontational....just to get people to look more closely at what is actually going on, and to be more honest and take off the blinkers that this poor tourist seems to see a lot clearer than the locals at times.

Kindly. Zazal

Do you apply this standard to learning a new language ?
Or to reading a poem, or literature ?

Lord have mercy +